where are they???????
McGuane
Davenport
Mansfield
Charles
OrEilly
etc etc etc

If you dont have picks you cant draft....

And Massie is doing fine over at Adelaide..
And they arent all going to materialise but you must give yoursef EVERY OPPORTUNITY...

We didnt..

thats all...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Synbad don't disagree that we threw away picks and plenty of them. We did keep some reasonable ones apart from '99:

1996 - 19 (traded) 38, 52, 74, 81
1997 - 7, 23, 39 (traded) 55, 70, 80, 83
1998 - 6, 22 (traded) 38, 58, 67
1999 - 16 (traded), 31(traded), 46 (traded) 60, 73, 80, 86, 90, 92, 93
2000 - 4, 11, 15, 31, 46, 61

Wasn't that why we went for all the retreads? How do we develop 24-28 year olds? Do we go for retreads again so our kids have older players to support them?

Then again many think we should trade all our 24-28 year olds anyway.

At the start of last year, during the Wizard Cup, Sporn & Livo looked to be players with decent futures. What has happened since then?

Have they been allowed to settle into one position?

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

FWIW I think Livo has spent too much time building up his bulk at the expense of his agility. Three 3 years ago we were hoping for someone to play on the gorillas and now the game has changed and we want someone to help start the run from full back. He doesn't get pushed off the ball by the big blokes but he seems to lack pace to run off and set up play.

Dennis's comments that he doesn't want to scar the young blokes or hinder their development seems to indicate that he agress with Molly that we need to give the youngsters a chance and then send them back to the VFL to get their confidence up. He said that this is the right way to develop the youngsters and although it is not easy he wants them to be developed properly. Having them smashed each week and losing confidence in themselves and thier ability is not good physically or emotionally for their future. Dropping the youngsters certainly is generating a lot of heat on him and the MC. Might have been easier to play the youngsters and get flogged each week but he seems to be thinking more about the future of the club than about his own record.

We have a group of players who won't take us any higher and a group of youngsters whom we believe have a future. Dennis has a very good record in developing youngsters and I will support him if he says that this is the way we have to go. He took the Kangas from juniors to premierships in 96 and 99 and he developed Stevens, Archer, Longmire, etc.into very good AFL footballers. I would like to see the youngsters play but if sending them back to the VFL is the best thing for the long term future of the club I'll wear it in the short term.

Denis has a wonderful record of developing kids in the 'Archaic Age'.
Hasnt developed a kid for a decade.
I mean kid who wasnt blessed with the God given talent of being a gun...

Denis belongs in a long past distant world...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Synbad,

I think Dennis has developed Simpson Fisher and Bentick and I wouldn't class any of them as having the given talent of a gun. I also think Wiggins is starting to show the development put into him. I think we need time to see if Betts Blackwell Russell etc benefit from being slowly developed.

Pagan got lucky when he got Carey like we got lucky when Sticks signed that form four. Stevens, Archer , Longmire, Mckernan etc would be nothing without Carey....Nth would not have won those flags without Carey and Pagan would not have a reputation any better than Eade or Wallace...
I was told by a ex Nth player that Pagan was nothing without Carey and I didnt believe him..I had full faith in Pagan ability's to get the job done and supported his signing....he was right and I thought it as just sour grapes as Pagan had moved him on to another club....Denis without a Wayne Carey cant get the job done ...for many reasons....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

another way of putting it is to develop a really strong side you need really strong leadership.

we are devoid of strong leadership

as Bucks pointed out on Sunday in the halftime stuff with Morell

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

We weren't lucky to sign Sticks on that form four - we identified Sticks as an elite talent as a 16 year old - by that often criticized talent scout on this site Shane O'Sullivan - he was instructed to go out and find the next Royce Hart - he didn't do that he went a few better in fact.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

see its not a chicken or egg argument, its a recipe discussion - we do not have all the ingredients.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Does this argument about Pagan being nothing without Carey also apply to Matthews at Brisbane?

Or any other coach that has Judd?

I recall Carey being pantsed by SOS in the 1999 Grand Final until Pagan made the move that won the flag and put him in the middle.

Did Pagan's paddock open up the forward 50 for Carey and play to his strengths?

And that isn't a backing of Pagan as coach no matter what.

Interesting debate on On The COuch tonight about our selection.

Wallsy was very passionately pissed off that we dodn;t play any kids and played the same old Bullants champs.

Healy backed up Pagan, said you can;t throw em to the wolves

Valid arguments on both sides but I think our balance against Port was wrong - another kid should have been in at a dud's expense

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They will know that they've been playing against the famous old dark blues

Walls was referring to how Carlton supporters probably feel, and then it became a story about he feels. Imbalanced imo. Didn't recognise that some of the so called duds have had their development ruined eg Livo, by the same method he was advocating. In addition to that Walls didn't recognise the fact that the fringe players are getting their last look in to see if they can show something.

I'm sure we'll see plenty of the kids in the second half of the season.

I'd back Gerard's common sense over Walls' simplicity and sensationalism anyday.

It's been a long time since Carlton was mentioned on this program, and just when I was about to turn off what was once my favourite show for the last time, they talk about Carlton. That saved their skin.

I think Gerard was right on the money as to where we are at atm. He suggested we haven't got much in the youth dept other than Murphy and Walker, and we'll stay down where we are for another couple of years.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Just curious (didnt see it), but did they make any mention of game time given to fringe/young players as they get put into the team?

Nope!

I have no problem with the way Denis has handled the young guys.

I was a lil pissed at first when reading that Kenndey and Blackwell got droped BUT after watching the Ants game I really like what Pagan is doing.


Blackwell, Russell and Kennedy have been given a taste this year, and have all gone back to the Ants and looked like more acomplished footballers and are hungry to do well. Blackwell and Russell were playing keepings off on the weekend. Russell has been bringing his own footy to Ants the last few weeks and is going to get a game in the 1st very soon. Not because he should be bought in a played for the hell of it, but because he has been showing that he wants that spot and wants to play.
Blackers will play a couple more weeks in the Ants and if he playes well, he will be bought into the seniors for the right reasons.

Blackwell, Russell, Bower, Edwards, Smith, Flint, Jackson and others will all be bought on the same as Simmo and AB have and I think it's the right way to go. We will only be hurting the club in the long run if the kids are not given the time that they need.

It's no secret we are not a gun side and we are all about the future. I dont agree with chucking kids in the deep end, when really, it's not going to change the game result, we are still going to get smashed and they wont touch the ball and just be beaten up in the mean time.

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Not so best of TheSexySquad


AWWWWWW STEVENS.

I disagree with a lot said on these posts
1 McGrath was ordinary Sunday
2 Play youngsters not hacks.We were 57 points down at half time against an average side with their midfielder out and there best player obviously playing injured.If that is not cause for change I dont know what flower is 3 The main reason we were down was skill errors.Wiggins still makes shocking mistakes which cost goals.
4 Never Have I been more unenthused about attending a game.Forget the last quarter the game was over at quarter time.
5 Why is it when Stevens turns the ball over with a piss weak disposal which directly results in a power goal he doesnt even get a message from the runner but Russell does the same thing against the Tiges and warms his arse on the pine for virtually the rest of the game.Does a lot for his confidence whilst are senior players are guarenteed a game and immunity from criticism.


We not only have lost the last 3 weeks we have not looked liked winning at any stage.Yet we play players who are not up to AFL standard and posters try to justify their selections.The only way to go is with kids.


I wont be going until the club changes the selection process and gives O'Hailpin,Russell ,Kennedy,Blackwell a decent go in a game( at least 65% of game time) and gives them a month in the seniors.Then drop em if they cant peform to get some ball.Better playing guys that might make it than guys who definitely wont.
And all this shit that young guys will be scarred by it. Footballers are human beings and if Pagan shows some faith in our young players hey suprise suprise they may play better.



A friend told me that an ex Kangaroos player who played under Pagan for 7 years was glad to leave because he was sick of being yelled at.And this player was good.Says something doesnt it.And Denis has still got 2.5 years to go on his contract.Did the club ever stop and look at any other options post Brittian.Pagans appointment although IMO is still too early to call may be end up another Elliott fuckup.

Keogh,

I don't think posters are trying to justify the selection of the retreads so much as they are trying to justify the non-selection of the kids. If you are going to develop the kids in the VFL until they are ready (a la Simmo, AB, and shortly Russel) then you need to play someone in the seniors. At the moment, our list gives us a choice between retreads and more retreads if the kids aren't going to play. The key here is not what you want to see (and personally, I'm glad when the kids get a game too) - the key is, how can we best develop these kids? If they need time in the VFL then they are better off being there than copping another hiding in the AFL. Not all kids are immediately ready for AFL - and we need to be sensitive to the needs of the individual in terms of their development. Russel is a prime example - couldn't find the footy in the VFL last year, posters on here reckoned he was a dud. Now he's bringing his own footy to the VFL, and we are starting to get to the stage where he will be right to play in the AFL when it will add to his development as a player - now that he is actually ready for it.

The argument is not about whether De Luca, Sporn, Longmuir, Wiggins, etc are up to it. The argument is whether Blackers, Kennedy, Edwards, Raso, Russel, Hartlett are ready. If they are not, then we can only hurt them by playing them at the top level. In the end, it is not about what you want to see, it is about what this club needs going forward.

Just a question for this healthy debate (and I have not developed an answer myself - by the way).

Why is it that we think players could be scarred by playing AFL in crap sides?

Now Andrew Walker has been playing for a few years in the worst side in the league and has developed outstandingly for mine. To a lesser degree Simmo and Bentick.

When the Bears were crap they had that nucleas of kids - Voss et al - that had been consistently hammered for years yet they turned out in the best team of all time ( well with the exception of every Carlton premiership team).

I'm thinking its more a chance of the opportunity not being right - ie not enough game time ( given a fair go) or played out of position that causes "failure" and hence dropping.

Part of me understands the concern (I've played for clubs that have folded they were that shit) and another part agrees with the theory that you've got to get games into them to develop them. I've heard some commentators (ex coaches) say that it's rubbish that a kid will be scarred.

Any thoughts?

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...