Kicking inefficiency, what have we done to address it or do we believe we can?
Bagging our players for poor disposal or accepting it isnt the answer. What is?

If a player is slight when he is drafted, he is given dietary advice and placed in the weight room.
If he is slow, he is given sprint training.
If his endurance is poor, his program is structured to get miles in to his legs.
What happens if his disposal is poor?

Very little work is placed in to remediation of kicking deficiencies or changing the mechanics of a players kicking style.
The common theme has been "it's too late to change him now".

It has been a common theme through AFL junior football that tampering with kicking styles is taboo.
Perhaps the inability of coaches, the AFL or Football Victoria to produce a generic document that the majority agree with has led to the problem that now exists.
It was only this year that a kicking program has been introduced into level one coaching courses to inform junior coaches about the mechanics of a kicking.

What happens when players fall through the cracks of suburban junior coaching and reach the elite levels? (TAC/VFL/AFL)
Is it too late to change their kicking style or are clubs perhaps negligent in their duties by not trying?

I have seen one Carlton player recieve advice on his kicking once in all the training sessions I have attended. Andrew Walker.
Have the football club videoed his kicking and analysed it?
Have they had experienced people from Football Victoria (and there are experts in this field) view his kicking and give feedback to Andrew and the relevant coaches?
Others may know the answer but I fear it will be in the negative.

Andrew is an elite athlete. He is a running machine with a fierce desire to succeed.
What do we lose by disassembling his kicking style and starting afresh?
He may lose 12 months of progress at his current rate?
He may lose confidence for a while and doubt his ability?
IMO, it's a risk worth taking.
If he continues as he is, he will never reach his full potential.

Where does kicking rate in the pecking order for recruiters?
Higher and higher all the time I'd suggest with the possession game grasping the AFL as a whole.
But the ability to create and find the footy must be addressed as well.
I would think it's easier to teach a ball winner how to kick than to teach a skilful player how to find the ball.
Yet we dont try.
We find athletes and try to teach them footy.

Players like Andrew Carrazzo and Andrew Walker have enormous ability. But we cant take a hail Mary approach to their disposal.
We seem to have a philosophy of "it will fix itself" or flick him if it doesnt.

Too easy.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Our field kicking is abysmal.

It cost us numerous goals and contested possession against Geelong on Saturday.

We had possession but kicked to our own umarked players "too high" in the air thus allowing Geelong players ample time to come over the top and spoil.

The mantra for the passing game should be "long and low" but we kick it "short and high" and it is killing us week after week.

My understanding is that Adelaide works very hard in this area.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I agree that some of our field kicking is poor but what is the answer Agro?

Do we bite the bullet and get experts in to start some players from scratch?
Do we put it in the too hard basket and flick them or do we accept them as they are and accept their weakness?

I firmly believe it's A.
If we are truly rebuilding, we shouldnt take shortcuts.
We should be putting every effort in to every player to extract the absolute best out of them.
Do you believe it is happening?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Excellent thread BV.

AW, Carrots, Waite and Fish (has made some progress) all need to improve their kicking if they are ever going to be class players.

Unfortunately it seems a lot easier to improve kids decision making skills, fitness, toughness and the ability to find the ball than it is to improve their kicking.

This is something our recruiters need to consider more.

Hopefully for these players it is largely a matter of confidence and it will improve over time.

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There is no footy god

No I dont, BlueVain. Believe me mate I am not shooting the messenger here I am agreeing with you 100%. It is an area we need to work so much harder in.

I am fed up with Coaching Press Conferences that start off with Denis Pagan saying "We butchered the ball."

Well Denis send the kids to William Angliss and let them learn how to do it properly at least.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Sorry Agro. If I came across aggressively, I didnt mean to.
I was trying to stimulate the argument.
I know our kicking is poor but I'm interested to know what we can do about it.
Do we do anything, if so do we do enough or are some of our players beyond remediation?

There are programs, simulations and experts avaiable. I know several junior development programs utilise them including TAC.
Do we or perhaps we think we're beyond that stage?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Is another question 'Why has Player X's kicking gone downhill so much?'. I remember watching Walker in his first pre-season and I thought he was a magnificent kick. Maybe he was settling first before kicking, but it gone downhill steadily. So much so that one of our best offensive weapons is being avoided out of the field - surely that shows that they have to do something about it.

Your main note does surprise me though. In my personal experience as a hack teenage footballer I had a funny kicking action and was retaught how to kick. Clearly nowhere near the same pressure but to my limited understanding teaching how to kick is surely easier than giving someone the ability to read the play?

Whatever the Dogs have done since Eade we should do. Their field kicking has improved out of sight over the last 18 months.

Having trained a life time ago as a PE teacher, teaching motor patterns is not difficult. All sports have had the motor patterns analysed and dissected. I know for a fact that kicking skills in Aussie Rules has been studied and studied and studied and it is not rocket science to correct a kicking defect. We are talking professional athletes here and the VIS has biomechanics experts that ought to consulted.
When I was coaching at junior level there were fellow players who kicked very well and I used them as models. Kade Simpson and Fev are excellent kicks - maybe both Andrews could watch what they do?
I don't think this is too simplistic in addressing the issue but it is also part of the broader issue of players lacking confidence and delivering the ball to advantage.
It will be interesting to see where this goes from here

Good thread.

Is it just Carlton or is it across the board in the AFL? Do the Blues ignore it more than other teams?

If you do a search for kicking coaches on the Australian google 90% of the results returned refer to Rugby kicking coaches. That was a bit of a surprise, expected to see some sort of evidence of some professional kicking coaches for AFL. Looking at some of these Rugby coaches, they follow a very biomechanical/scientific approach to kicking.

Is this indicative that most AFL teams do not take the improvement of kicking skills seriously enough?

Is it a just a culture of coaching that needs to be changed?

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Of course we do but this shouldn't simply be limited to kicking. Anywhere there's an issue with any part of the game we should be bringing in people to help left, right and centre.

I haven't made it to training much lately but throughout the Pagan years there seems to be a lack of use of the club's extensive past talent as guest lecturers/coaches/mentors etc. We have the greatest collection of living past greats of any club and yet we don't seem to utilize it nearly as much as we might.

Obviously Pagan hasn't been around the club for the last 30 years so he's less likely to have immediate access or close contact with most of those available but why can't we appoint someone such as a Robert Walls or a David Parkin who's had a lot to do with the club over the years to set up a program to stream players with particular inadequacies into groups.

It'd be like a mini tertiary course with subjects including (but not limited to):

Jim Buckley on streaming out of the centre towards goal...
Wayne Johnston on S&M...
Justin Madden on tap ruckwork...
Alex Jesaulenko on how to land after taking a screamer...
David Rhys Jones on how to snot someone...
Greg Williams on how to get the most out of yourself...
Jon Dorotich on overexposure...
Scott Camporeale on how to get the most out of your club (Anthony Koutoufides as guest speaker)...
Bruce Doull on the appropriate time to speak to the media...

Obviously some of these may not get up on the final syllabus but you get my point...

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

At AFL level you shouldnt have to teach a player how to kick a footy. Its a fundametal skill that a player should know. Moving forward unless a player is well skilled both by hand and foot he shouldn't be drafted no matter how athletic he may be. lack of foot skills was the reason why Carrazzo was not drafted in the first place.

Throughout this season, and last season, kicking has been one of the main skills that TC'ers have been most concerned with; or should I say disappointed with.

We expect that kicking at AFL level to be one skill that is a given. The first thing we all do, or attempt to do, when starting out is to kick the ball. In our mind there is no excuse for poor disposal by hand and foot at this level. We pay good money to see a good exhibition.

Thanks BV for initiating this topic , and I hope our discussion provides answers, as usual, with a view that suggestions be adopted in order to solve this problem and to help fast track the kids' development.

Blue Vain wrote the following; see quotes



Well, as you and others have said before, not enough. There are many times after training where a bunch of kids are staying back hoining their kicking skills. Most disappointing has been the fact that there has been no coaching to help out. Without a focussed eye at training these kids are executing an action that may have deficiencies, but noone is there to suggest required changes for improvement.

So first suggestion is to support the kids at and after training as they bust their guts to improve. Tuition at training is a must.



Well there you go BV, this is great suggestion. Is the MC aware of this service. If so, first question is, have they taken the opportunity to use it. If not aware it exists, don't bag the ignorance, but suggest to the MC to take advantage of this service.



Well kicking is a science in itself. If we treat it as a science, our players would be bathing in the theory necessary as a starting point.
The application of the science should go something like:
1. Player be made aware and comprehend the theory
2. Identify what player is doing correct and incorrect in terms of the theory
3. Identify if the players own style is effective and relative to their own make up; mechanics
4. Determine which faults/idiosyncracies work for them and which don't.
5. Practise Practise and practise
6. Practise under a watchful eye.
7. Train the trainer, and team mates can help each other
8. Simulate match conditions and practsise what they've learned
9. Practise Practise practise
10 Preseason kicking clinic and competitions for fun



That's because it's a science. If kids learn the rules of engagement, they will be aware of the little things they are doing or not doing. It's a science. So should senior footvballers week in week out. They too have their ups and downs. Don't let them dwell in their down times on their own. Practise the problem out of them.



That's the cost if we don't. Molsey states (and I remember the same and agree) that Walker's kicking was fantastic in his first preseason, and again last pre season. Maybe he's not steadying before his kick and trying to adapt a kick to the pace he's achieving. I'm not the expert. Someone should find out (look at videos, ask the player) and do something about it, as suggested above.



The club has a duty of care, for the player, the club and its supporters to see that our kids develop their skills during their tenure. With kids breaking into senior lists at 17-19, than we have an obligation to continue development that would have been done at their junior/ feeder clubs.



We're not just asking for improvement in kicking tuition, we expecting that to be a standard.

If the club does not improve this area of tuition, they will not hear the end of our disappointment in, not the kids, but the club itself. I want parents to be proud that their child is coming to Carlton for their development. We must make Carlton the club that kids and all footballers want to come to.

Step up, treat the development as a science and give these kids the words of advice they need to feel they are on the right track.

If I do not see an improvement after the pre season, I'll take my good guy hat off, and take my placard of protest to the ground. And if they kick me out, I'm going to AFL house and the streets with it to embarrass them to change. Short term pain for a long term gain. That's a promise. But that should not be necessary.

The club has an obligation to apply best practise, in every area of our kids' development.

Seek to understand. Have a look at what other clubs are doing, get some advice from experts and apply it before we build our new facilties, and before we continue to waste god given talent that doesn't grow on trees.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

When a golfer has trouble he generally goes away and works on his swing. Some return better than ever ,others never recover again . Cue IBF
Its amazing how when your on top of your game be it football golf or any other sport you dont notice any flaws in your game - But when put under pressure that flaw rises to the top . Greg Norman was a classic at it when in majors he would tighten up and block the ball to the right .

There are ways you can fix most flaws and most are generally fixed through repetition . Best example of this was Johhny Wilkinson who kicked England to a World cup win in the union and who with out any doubt would be the best kicker of a football from any code of football.

Wilko used to practice 6-8 hours a day every day and on the day of the world cup final he spent 4 hours in the rain at Concorde oval on his own practicing his shots at goal . A total commitment of a truely commited professional

Find the flaw - address the flaw then practice practice practice until the flaw has gone - Then and only then will the player gain the confidence to do it in the game. There are no quick fixes ask any mug golfer who has bought some gadget to try improve his swing

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They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Agree guys. Amazing isn't it.

Excellent thread, BV.

With you re: the quality of our skills and what needs to be done about it.

Being a late bloomer to football, and having no one in my family who played the game before, I taught myself to kick a footy from the moment I started playing in Under 12s. I'm the first to admit my kicking was ordinary in my junior days and I often wonder how I made it through the 60 odd games I played at East Burwood. However, I knew I had to get my skills better if I was going to make it in Under 18s and, more importantly, senior football. So I enlisted in the help of a skills coach during my first year of Under 18s.

My skills coach's name was Simon Dalrymple and he works as a development officer for Football Victoria and also works for the Northern Knights in the TAC league (not sure if he's still there anymore). Anyway, I'd pay my $30 a session, once a week for 6 months, to have him improve my foot skills. It wasn't just general kicking either. He'd have me kicking to a lead, kicking the ball in the air, grabbing it on the half volley and delivering it to a leading target, kicking for goal on the run, taking a mark at it's highest point, running a few steps and then kicking the ball aout 30 metres, practising on my opposite foot etc etc

While was only with him for 6 months, my skills gradually improved over time. And while they aren't exactly awesome today, they are still far better than they were 2 years ago.

Another way players can improve their foot skills is the old method of constant repetition. Usually the players who are desperate to succeed are constantly out on the park away from their footy club, just practising their skills over and over and over again. I did this to learn how to kick with my left foot. I broke the skill down in to different stages and practiced each stage until I felt I had it right. It took me almost a full day out in the local park repeating these stages before I was able to kick left foot. And, to be honest, my stationary kicking with my left foot is probably better than my right foot.

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If you are talking about Ian Baker Finch, here SB, I would like to make some observations:

I have a business partner on the Gold Coast who is the business manager/accountant of IBF/Jen Baker Finch and a partner with him in golf course development. Whilst I know very little about golf myself, I have been privy to the IBF story. I most recently rode around in a buggy with them at a pro-am at Hope Island and got to hear a fair bit about application of skills.

Firstly let me say that Ian has gone on to become a household name in the US where he has worked for the ABC and ESPN Networks as their resident expert. He's is also a much sought after keynote speaker about this very subject:

He has constantly claimed that if a young sportsman has the skills they usually make the cut (excuse the pun), but sometimes go off the rails for some reason. He puts this down to mental application, self belief and bad habits.

As Pago Pago keeps saying it's 90% above the shoulders. Kids appear to have all the skills in the under age comps, but once under pressure in an AFL enviroment, they look like they have never had them. I'm sure this is going to be addressed in the off season, as he has also repeatedly made reference to butchering of the ball.

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2002:> "In their Masters Chambers
They Gathered for their Feast
They Stabbed us with their Steely Knives
But They Just Can't Kill The Beast!" <2016

THE BLUEBAGGER BEAST IS BAACKK!!

I'm just staggered & bloody angry that this skill hasn't been addressed in past pre-seasons. Gameplans, fitness, everyhting is worthless without good disposal. Truly staggering that something as fundamental as good kicking tecniques has been relegated down the order of importance to team performance.

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There's so much I could say...

You're sure Pagan will address this in the "off season" are you?
Well it's not like it's been a problem in the previous 4 that he's been at the club!

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

GWS said

I have always stated that we make no use of our past champions in the development of our kids.

Our kicking skills were on poor display on Saturday and this has go to be addressed in the immediate future.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.