Not much different in ability but both are where they are because of poor recruiting and drafting - hawthorn apart from last draft for 5 years before were simply shocking -
Carlton before Pagan were generally shocking and since pagan have been affected by draft penalties so have played with a stacked deck
Both have some promising young players but both have very ordinary middle tier and middle aged players and both have a couple of good elder statesman
Hawthorn played better early this year but I suspect will end up bottom as carlton will play better in second half.

Frank the Hawks style is very negative. I think if they were encouraged to play more direct, they would certainly benefit.
Where do you see our improvement coming from in the 2nd half of the season?
Regards Pedro.

with you Frank, in each case....poor lists and pretty similar. And the odds are that we will win a few from here - i mean it can't be all bad can it and a few upsets are always on the cards.

having said that, i have caught the "bug". What would be better winning 3 or 4 of the next 11 or finishing last with 5 or less? A 'free' draft choice and first pick in the draft would be a treat.

I say go with the flow, enjoy every moment. No outcome is predictable.

Shit, I have just changed my tune Go blues......win tonight and keep on winning!!!

the inclusion of fisher and improvement of waite walker carrazzo betts livo bryan thorton sporn will be the key.
Hopefully improvement in form of scotland teague chambers may also help

Hawthorn could be our saviour here Both sides of the argument can win here, Hawks win one more and take the spoon, we win two more stay below 5 wins in 15th, We get a priority pick and don't get the spoon.

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The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

Ronald Reagan

I'd say our worst case (for draft picks) is our first pick is 3 and no PP (ie, Hawthorn get picks 1 and 2).

Pick 3 is no chopped liver. If we had pick 3, there'd be nothing really to sook about.

2 and 4 is even better though, of course. It means we double dip. Can't sook there.

But 1 and 2 is better

Hawthorn's "game plan" is being scrutinised by people who don't see a big picture. I think this chip game is part of their development. Part of them gaining faith overtime with their skills and in their teammates. It also means Clarkson can watch the composure of players, and identify who's worth keeping. It also runs his younger midfielders like Mitchell and Hodge into a bit of form and confidence.

I doubt Clarkson reckons he could win a premiership with that gameplan... but then again, he wouldn't win a premiership with that list.

Its a "transition game-plan" thats part of their development. Good on Clarkson, I say. He's got a long-term plan.

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Love Cricket? Love me

I still want the 1st pick (Clarke) but if our second pick is the 3rd pick we'll still get a gun in Hurn or the next best tall (Dowler). Win, Win.

But if 2 and 4 are our picks and Murphy goes to Brisbane, ATM who is the 4th best kid in the country?

I'm with you there, Pedro. You can see when the Hawks play direct, they can actually be very fast and very good.
their season could go either way from here.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

If we're as crap as we're showing thus far this evening I hope the Hawks can jag 3 more wins and leave us with pick 1 and 2.
Talk of tanking is optimistic, I think Pagan wishes he actually had the luxury of tanking. With the team performing as it is we're tanking by default.

yep, we're "TankingCarlton"!!

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... an eagle flew out of the night. he was something to observe, came in close i heard a voice, bending stretching every nerve, had to listen had no choice ...

Tanking? You give us too much credit.
Pagan could instruct the team to go out there and tank and they'd manage to f$%k that up too.

I never bought the whole tanking argument but the way the doggies had guys by themselves all night, you have to question the effort.

there is no tanking policy!! no professional athlete goes out there to "tank"!

we are just too soft and too mentally fragile. no-one takes responsibility and no-one shows leadership.

our guys just play self-preservation, selfish football. the number of times we just throw the footy onto the boot at a stoppage or centre bounce, while the doggies show courage and strength to look for a free option or use the ball well.

i would just like to see the coaching panel make an issue of this selfish, self-preservation garbage we're being served up each week!

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... an eagle flew out of the night. he was something to observe, came in close i heard a voice, bending stretching every nerve, had to listen had no choice ...

Rambo has been saying we are soft for a few years now, finally the rest has finally discovered that.

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Bang Bang.

It's becoming obvious that Carlton vs Hawthorn in Round 17 is going to be THE defining match of the season for us.

If we win, the Hawks will finish on the bottom, get the best kid and (perhaps more importantly) have the freedom to actively persue a very good out-of-contract interstater such as Luke Power and throw big money at him.

Getting a player the quality of Stevens after finishing 15th was a one-off, I think. Players of genuine quality rarely end up in the PSD and if they do, it's even rarer that there's more than one.

But if the Hawks manage to get over the top of us, then we've got two first picks: in the national draft and in the pre-season draft. Plus pick 2 or 3.

Imagine snagging a Luke Ball, a Daniel Wells and a Luke Power...

Now, I know that clubs like to say they play every game to win, blah blah blah. But football administrators aren't stupid, and I reckon that Round 17 games is going to be VERY interesting.

How many ways can both clubs sabotage their chances of winning without it looking too obvious? Because I'm convinced that the administrators at both clubs will go into that match FEARING a win.

Interesting...

Round 17
Carlton vs. Hawthorn

"The Battle for Mitch Clarke"

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

I'm predicting a flu epidemic along with quite a few training related injuries for both sides if neither has a win before then.

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The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.

Ronald Reagan

First ever nil all draw in AFL!

the ball will resemble a ticking bomb, with each player trying to give it to the opposition only to get it back again.

Could be the ugliest match in living history.

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The measure of a life is a measure of love and respect
So hard to earn, so easily burned
In the fullness of time
A garden to nurture and protect

#DopeThenStash

we should have let them beat us at the start of season...

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R A D I C A L B R O T H E R S

Inspired by the One-Minute Sculptures of Erwin Wurm

"All in all is all we are..."