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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:49 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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TheGame wrote:
Livo isn't Beaumonts jock strap. As soon as we get rid of this dud the better.
Hey Blues2005 do you think Martyn was a better option than Manton in 2003? If the answer is yes I'll stop arguing because Pagan really has got you whipped.


:D

Shocking stuff that, we treated Manton poorly in his last year.

I think Beaumont was a far better player than you guys are giving him credit for. He played a lone hand down back (as a KPP) after SOS retired. A young Thornton and Livo being his assistants.

Having said that, if he wasn't prepared to change to Pagan's style and causing trouble we did the right thing by getting rid of him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 9:51 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Rod Waddell wrote:
However you need a hand. You need assistance. You need to bolster you football department (Elsaugh and Libba are not the answer). Perhaps if you take a paycut - say drop your wage from $630k to $500k we may be able to snag a fulltime and a part time assistant - preferably successful just out of the game ex-players (Marcus Ashcroft comes to mind)


I'd be enquiring about M.Voss' services for assistant coach next year!! :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:10 pm 
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Garry Crane

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Sydney Blue wrote:
CarltonClem wrote:
Sydney, you've never answered this question even though I've put it to you several times.

If you have employees who are actively undermining your authority what are you going to do? Are you going to be weak and keep them? Or are you going to be a leader and say they are useless to the organisation, they are fired.

If they had talent, then Pagan has more balls than you give him credit for if he got rid of them.

If Beaumont was that good why isn't he playing for the Hawks at the moment (who you might have noticed are 15th on the ladder)?


Having been poached by several companies over the years the idea is not to get yourself in a position where your employees are trying to undermine you in the first place . If they are trying to undermine you it shows they have no confidence in your ability and you must have done something to cause that lack of confidence . The last thing you want to do when brought in to a situation where issues need addressing is to get the old employees offside . You need to work with them take their ideas on board let them think they are having an input and through natural attrition ( not wholesale sackings and retrenchments ) let them move on . The process usually takes about 3-4 years and what you find is the people that want to be there and are prepared to do the hard work do so and stay and those that are looking for the easy way out tend to leave .
As for talent everbody has some sort of talent the idea is to get the person to use that talent.


SB - you say above "the process usually takes 3 or 4 years"?????

You think Pagan should have taken 3 - 4 years to get Murphy, Allan and Beaumont sorted??? I'd hate to see what you'd be saying about him now if he was going through your "process".

If you had been poached several times, you would know there are some people you cannot win over. They will work against you the minute you walk in the door. Essentially, they have an attitude of "its me or the new guy". It doesn't matter what you do, they want you GONE. They will never admit you are right, they will never concede one single point. They are counter productive. This is the attitude these guys had.

And when push came to shove, Collins backed Pagan. Thank God. If he hadn't, the chances are the wonderful advice Allan would have handed to our young kids is to introduce them to a fantastic manager. Not only would you now be complaining about Pagan, you'd also be complaining about the fact that everyday the the backpage headline is "Blues Exodus - Allison says Walker, Waite, Thornton to leave"

But I'm betting you don't remember the David Allison fiascos, just the same as you don't remember round 22, 2003.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:16 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Quote:
just the same as you don't remember round 22, 2003.


What is the big deal with that thrashing? There has been numerous since. The Richmond game this year was even worse.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:17 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Our 4 Coach's are all 5 foot nothing what are they teaching our talls?
Never been a fan of Elsaugh but he won't be going anywhere while his buddy Pagan is there. Would hope next year we target a tall far an assistant coach role.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:18 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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TheGame wrote:
Quote:
just the same as you don't remember round 22, 2003.


What is the big deal with that thrashing? There has been numerous since. The Richmond game this year was even worse.


Well it wasn't....124 points or 85 points?

Thats not what he means though. The players apparantly went on strike in that Round 22 game.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:22 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Well they must have went on strike in the first half of the Richmond game this year. Also must have striked the StKilda, Melbourne, Port and WC debacles last year.

Bullsh!t rumour that has been started on the net.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:28 pm 
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Garry Crane

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TheGame wrote:
Well they must have went on strike in the first half of the Richmond game this year. Also must have striked the StKilda, Melbourne, Port and WC debacles last year.

Bullsh!t rumour that has been started on the net.


You obviously weren't there. That was without doubt the most embarrassing performance ever.

The debacles you note above were bad, but no worse than a crap side getting flogged by talented sides. That tends to happen.

The North Melb game was atrocious, embarrassing, and some of those players deserved never to wear a Carlton jumper ever again.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:43 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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I was there, I've seen them all unfortunately. They have become quite a regular thing during Pagans time with us.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:49 pm 
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Bob Chitty
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TheGame wrote:
I was there, I've seen them all unfortunately. They have become quite a regular thing during Pagans time with us.


Surely you don't blame Dennis for this!!

If you do then in the immortal words of John Newman
YOU IDIOT

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:50 pm 
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Garry Crane

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Well if you were there I am stunned that you don't think that one was the worst. I really am.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 10:57 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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You've just gotten use to them now McKaysMistress. They are all embarassing, as will our next match against the Eagles.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:56 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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No you just want to blame denis pagan because that is far easier than in looking at the clunb and seeing the shit hole it had become.

that Nth loss is the worst i have seen ever! Amnd i was there the day carelton kicked 30 30 against hawthorn (12: 12 if I remember correctly - thats a 21 goal thrashing and it should have been 30 goals) but the Nth boys were pissing themselves that day, laughing and toying like a cat with a hurt mouse and the way they fed to spider - sorry Game but that was so far away the worst game i have seen that I doubt you were there if you can't see it.


But like i said - you want to blame Pagan.

Well that's okay blame him all you want but when the ship is turned just remember to praise him and if it doesn;t turn i'll be the first to congratulate you on your remarkable clearsightedness.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 11:59 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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dannyboy wrote:
that Nth loss is the worst i have seen ever! Amnd i was there the day carelton kicked 30 30 against hawthorn (12: 12 if I remember correctly - thats a 21 goal thrashing and it should have been 30 goals) but the Nth boys were pissing themselves that day, laughing and toying like a cat with a hurt mouse and the way they fed to spider - sorry Game but that was so far away the worst game i have seen that I doubt you were there if you can't see it.


Totally right, a true disgrace


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 12:51 am 
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formerly Josh Kaplan

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pitiful. shameful.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:59 am 
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Geoff Southby
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I was there it was shocking. So was the StKilda game last year when we made that masterstroke move of Fev at fullback and the StKilda scored a double century.
Have we gone forward under Pagan? No the side is in worse shape than it was when he got there.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:15 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sun Feb 27, 2005 9:26 pm
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Sydney Blue wrote:

Having been poached by several companies over the years the idea is not to get yourself in a position where your employees are trying to undermine you in the first place . If they are trying to undermine you it shows they have no confidence in your ability and you must have done something to cause that lack of confidence . The last thing you want to do when brought in to a situation where issues need addressing is to get the old employees offside . You need to work with them take their ideas on board let them think they are having an input and through natural attrition ( not wholesale sackings and retrenchments ) let them move on . The process usually takes about 3-4 years and what you find is the people that want to be there and are prepared to do the hard work do so and stay and those that are looking for the easy way out tend to leave .
Quote:
As for talent everbody has some sort of talent the idea is to get the person to use that talent
.


I believe TheGame is the perfect illustration of MKM's point about some employees are going to be against you the moment you walk in the door.

Bullsh*t internet rumour it isn't Game, because it was basically reported (without the player being named) in The Age.

Sydney, you said:

Quote:
what you find is the people that want to be there and are prepared to do the hard work do so and stay and those that are looking for the easy way out tend to leave


Therein lies the problem my friend. There were players who did not want to work hard, to do weights, to do the extra things around the footy club, to help the younger players etc. Denis found out who they were and even if they weren't traded they would have left Sydney. It wasn't exactly a one way street mate. They wanted out and so did Denis. Except in this case it only took them a year to work it out.

If natural attrition took place we'd have been 16th in 2003, 16th in 2004 and 16th this year and you'd be calling for Pagan's head (and you are anyway but that's not the point).

As an aside, my father was retrenched from his job at an investment bank in 2000 after a merger had meant that some staff from another bank were in his department. One was a rabid feminist who was incompetent (happened to be my father's boss) and he wouldn't move, in the end they had to retrench him. She left or was forced to leave a year or so later. This brings me to the next point.

Sydney said:
Quote:
As for talent everbody has some sort of talent the idea is to get the person to use that talent


While this is true to some extent, some people don't and were wrongly recruited for the task at hand. This happens in corporations and it happens in football clubs. Some are more talented than others of that there is no doubt. Our talent pool is the lowest of the 16 clubs at the moment and we need to get it back to a competitive level. Do you question that we have the lowest talent pool of the 16 clubs?

And can I ask what did you think of Pagan when we won the Wizard Cup?

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 8:44 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Clem, that sounds like when Slough and Swindon branches merged. Always going to go pear shaped.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2005 10:09 am 
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Craig Bradley
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dannyboy wrote:
No you just want to blame denis pagan because that is far easier than in looking at the clunb and seeing the shit hole it had become.

that Nth loss is the worst i have seen ever! Amnd i was there the day carelton kicked 30 30 against hawthorn (12: 12 if I remember correctly - thats a 21 goal thrashing and it should have been 30 goals) but the Nth boys were pissing themselves that day, laughing and toying like a cat with a hurt mouse and the way they fed to spider - sorry Game but that was so far away the worst game i have seen that I doubt you were there if you can't see it.


But like i said - you want to blame Pagan.

Well that's okay blame him all you want but when the ship is turned just remember to praise him and if it doesn;t turn i'll be the first to congratulate you on your remarkable clearsightedness.


yep the worst game by far that i have ever seen, i cant ever remember feeling as crap after a game as that.

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