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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:20 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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mandy wrote:
The Tyrant wrote:
way to steal my idea and reproduce it, B2005


I thought it sounded familiar.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:07 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Don't stress. You should take it as a compliment!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:12 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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There is only I flaw in this comparison - mind you it is a big one - Lists. Collingwood's list (yes Ihate this ) is better than ours at this point - perhaps better is the wrong word - how about more developed. Further along. their bodies are bigger. their backline stronger. They have covered Buckley, Rocca and Fraser better than we could cover French, Fev and Kouta. They have second teir players and kids.

We have a few champs and we have kids - we have stuff all inbetween.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:31 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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I disagree. I think some of our younger kids are getting press because we've won some hard games. It's not all about skill and talent these days. I don't think anyone would say we have a better list than Port, or Geelong, or most definitely West Coast.

But we still beat them.

Other than our backline, the rest of our team is a bit of an inexperienced, young, no-names. But every week they go out there prepared to work hard for each other. Each. Other.

That's the only difference I see.

You guys were going well up to half time yesterday. And you looked like a team. There was back-patting, there was unity, there was a sense of team. But then it fell away again. The heads started dropping, the encouragement ended and nobody really looked like they wanted to be there.

Your guys can play footy, and they can play it well. It's not about skill, it's not about the list. Someone needs to get into that area above their heads and make them want to win again. Do that, and I have no doubt you'll be once again heading into that direction you all belived to be the path after the Wizard Cup.







ps. And if anyone want to reply with "well yeah, Collingwood are crap and will never make the finals" can save yourself time. I know they won't this year. But in the last 2 months I couldn't be happier with the way we've played and turned around an almost certain wooden spoon to show something that makes me happy to barrack for them again.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:33 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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This list + Buckley and Wakelin = finals

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:46 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Judd + Cousins + Cox = finals

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 12:55 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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You can add as many "champions" into your side as you like. If everyone else doesn't want to be there, you'll still be on the bottom.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:22 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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with those 3 names injected into your side why wouldnt you want to be out there?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:27 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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David Parkin's philosophy was that you build teams from the backline. If you have a settled and stable backline that works well together, you will more than likely have a team that is competitive week in week out.

If you compare the current Carlton and Collingwood teams, I think our midfields and forward lines probably break even. They key difference between the two teams is in defence.

Collingwood have an outstanding backline in Wakelin, Clement and Presti who have been playing together for a number of years now and they gel extremely well. It is very rare that all 3 are beaten by their opponents on a given day.

At Carlton we don't have that luxury. As much as I love T-Bird, Livo and Teaguey etc, our backline has been punching above it's weight since 2002. Our success in the 90's was mainly due to our superb backline in SOS, Sexton, Dean, Ang, Rice and Macca, I mean, how's that for a backline?

On a positive note, our backline has youth on it's side. If T-Bird and Livo can actually have a couple of seasons together where they're on the paddock at the same time, they too will learn to gel together. Plus throw in Hartlett, Karl (if he's still around) and an O'Hailpin or two and we'll have a backline that will be roughly the same age that will develop together as a group. This frees up a guy like Teague to do what he does best, running head first into packs and sending us into raptures.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:32 pm 
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Robert Walls

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mandy wrote:
I disagree. I think some of our younger kids are getting press because we've won some hard games. It's not all about skill and talent these days. I don't think anyone would say we have a better list than Port, or Geelong, or most definitely West Coast.

But we still beat them.

Other than our backline, the rest of our team is a bit of an inexperienced, young, no-names. But every week they go out there prepared to work hard for each other. Each. Other.

That's the only difference I see.

You guys were going well up to half time yesterday. And you looked like a team. There was back-patting, there was unity, there was a sense of team. But then it fell away again. The heads started dropping, the encouragement ended and nobody really looked like they wanted to be there.

Your guys can play footy, and they can play it well. It's not about skill, it's not about the list. Someone needs to get into that area above their heads and make them want to win again. Do that, and I have no doubt you'll be once again heading into that direction you all belived to be the path after the Wizard Cup.







ps. And if anyone want to reply with "well yeah, Collingwood are crap and will never make the finals" can save yourself time. I know they won't this year. But in the last 2 months I couldn't be happier with the way we've played and turned around an almost certain wooden spoon to show something that makes me happy to barrack for them again.


Good insight from an outsider. I don't think a couple of talented yougsters are going to solve all our problems. We're not completely devoid of talent but they're not really showing it nor do they do the team things or play with much spirit ,except on rare occasions but we don't look that bad when we do, as in 1st 1/2 yesterday.


Last edited by BlueWorld on Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:33 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Disagree slo mo.

Our backline doesn't need much to be competitive, either does our forward line.

Our midfield however is close to the worst one I've ever seen in navy blue. Unaccountable and ineffective. They are where the rot starts, and there's not a backline in the comp (including ours) that could begin to handle the quality and quantity of ball that flows in from guess where? The opposition midfield.

Fix the midfield and we'll have a competitive team. End of story.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:37 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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slow mo
Quote:
David Parkin's philosophy was that you build teams from the backline. If you have a settled and stable backline that works well together, you will more than likely have a team that is competitive week in week out.

If you compare the current Carlton and Collingwood teams, I think our midfields and forward lines probably break even. They key difference between the two teams is in defence.

Collingwood have an outstanding backline in Wakelin, Clement and Presti who have been playing together for a number of years now and they gel extremely well. It is very rare that all 3 are beaten by their opponents on a given day.

At Carlton we don't have that luxury. As much as I love T-Bird, Livo and Teaguey etc, our backline has been punching above it's weight since 2002. Our success in the 90's was mainly due to our superb backline in SOS, Sexton, Dean, Ang, Rice and Macca, I mean, how's that for a backline?


Good post slow mo a solid backline IMO is the most important part of a strong team. Last year we were more competitive because our backline was stronger with Lappin, Houla and Norman playing well back there.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 1:40 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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so let me get this right mandy - you think our guys wanted to be out there for the first half but at half time decided they didn't?

Did you watch the game?

You could see throughout the first half that at some point the damn would burst. It had nothing to do with wanting to be out there and everything to do ith sheer talent - and a style that is as suited to that ground as ours isn't.

We have little run in our side, what we had as expended by half time. ('cept Walker!)

and they ar ebrilliant and blocking for each other because they have so much speed spread so evenly across the ground. Name a slow line - shit find more than three slow blokes in that lineup!

At the MCG or TD you can counter that but at Subiaco - forget it. how many game sstraight have they won there? Is it 17? Gee lets not ignore the ground. We remember P.P. in the 90's, rememeber how confident it made us in those 3rd quarters! What you think that only happens to Carlton.

We are the Fitzroy or the Sth Melbourne of my youth. sadly, I think they tried their guts out, sadly they got smashed by 80 odd points! You can pretend for us all you want Mandy that its just a bit of attitude but it isn't. It is skill and pace and an ability to win clearances for a whole game and a
a few other things as well.

I do not want a team of triers or goers. I want to win the 17th!

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 6:27 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Deano Supremo wrote:
Disagree slo mo.

Our backline doesn't need much to be competitive, either does our forward line.

Our midfield however is close to the worst one I've ever seen in navy blue. Unaccountable and ineffective. They are where the rot starts, and there's not a backline in the comp (including ours) that could begin to handle the quality and quantity of ball that flows in from guess where? The opposition midfield.

Fix the midfield and we'll have a competitive team. End of story.


I never said our backline wasn't competitive, they do very well considering the circumstances. However they do lack experience in terms of playing together and knowing each other's game inside out.

I do agree that we need a more accountable midfield, but they are still severely under-manned. We'd be much more competitive with Houla Lappin and Carrazzo being rotated through the middle rather than having to use them in the backline.

Modern footy is all about defence to attack transition, therefore that is why most teams are built from the backline up. Would you rather see our backline creating our forward attacks, or our midfielders getting cheap kicks in the backline and then having nothing to kick to?

We do need more midfielders, but I'd like to see us build a settled backline first.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 7:11 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Collingwood are bigger bodied than we are and have far more depth with their talls.....Richards, Rocca and Fraser have been out most of the year....but C. Cloke and T Cloke have filled the gaps .
Clement was a quality freebie and Holland and Licuria were also fair pickups who while having limitations have given good service.

I dont think Collingwood are going anywhere with their list but but they are competitive because of their work ethic ...and they dont have many little schoolboy types.
Work ethic will get you so far but they need some class to propel them any further..

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2005 9:30 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Ill go against the grain here.. Again.
In my opinion we need midfielders.. plent of good midfielders.
More than anything else .Gimme midfielders.
For one they control the game so they can help the defence by pushing the ball more into our inside 50s.
You can have the best defence in the league but if your midfield aint breaking even and theyre forever trying to stem the tide youll lose...
The kids will get bigger as they work harder in the gym.
At the moment there are no real role models for gym work.
I wouldnt go out and recruit big bodied midfielders (aka Hurn) unless they are worthy of being a very good 10 year player and not his body size.

If i could this year.. in my opinion i would take Marc Murphy and Xavier ellis as our two first picks.
the chances are ellis wouldnt play next year anyway but geez he is a class act as far as im concerned.

Mandy... you can think anything you like about Collingwood but just know your club has won 1 premiership in 50 years and you cant teach us how to suck eggs.
I reckon we will win a premiership before your lot do.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:01 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Synbad wrote:
Mandy... you can think anything you like about Collingwood but just know your club has won 1 premiership in 50 years and you cant teach us how to suck eggs.
I reckon we will win a premiership before your lot do.


Oh man, never saw that coming from you. :roll:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:33 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

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I think Mandy is largely correct.
If anything she overrates our talent component.
Our players get away with things the Collingwood players would be dropped for.
They get too easily dispirited.
They refuse to chase hard and they play mostly as individuals.
A large part of it is lack of confidence, belief in the team and teammates.

A disturbing component is lack of spirit.
They give up on contests too easily.
Collingwood are twice the team we are at the moment.
Fortunately confidence can be quickly increased.
That is Denis' challenge.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:33 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Agree with that synbad in our case because we don't even have half a midfield.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:41 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Deano Supremo wrote:
Disagree slo mo.

Our backline doesn't need much to be competitive, either does our forward line.

Our midfield however is close to the worst one I've ever seen in navy blue. Unaccountable and ineffective. They are where the rot starts, and there's not a backline in the comp (including ours) that could begin to handle the quality and quantity of ball that flows in from guess where? The opposition midfield.

Fix the midfield and we'll have a competitive team. End of story.


Once again Deano is spot on

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