Pagan deserves each players respect!

He's hardly there to be their friends and hold their hands!

Each player that shows the smallest ounce of disrespect for the coach and team players should be kicked out HARD!

Stop wasting everybody's time FGS!

Agree that it would be difficult IF Pagan wants to stay. However, that could be circumvented behind the scenes - perhaps convincing Pagan that its not in his best interests to stay (coaching record, passing up a chance to coach a very good list etc), the board could also take more control of coaching appointments (assistants, etc).

Obviously forcing a coach to go is going to involve a payout - providing the opportunity for a mutual parting (well at least publicly) might help avoid this as all parties involved save face.

Though I dont recall the details, wasnt the walls/northey coach swap a few years back (fitzroy/brisbane?) occur along similar lines?

What stupid thing to suggest 4th Chicken like or dislike Pagan he has just signed on for 600K per Year over 3 years. You expect to let him go to St-Kilda who have a coach they are happy with even if most people think that Thomas is a good player Manager / Average Coach.

So you suggest that the Blues Pay Pagan for 2-3 Years at the Saints what half his contract 300K or maybe the Saints will like if we pay 2/3 of his contract 400K a year then they get Pagan at 200K and you can have yer pick of som untried at 500 - 600K when you add Pagans Payout.

What a load of Crap... not gonna happen yes we know there is some issues at the club has been for 4 years even before Pagan got to our club with all the boarde changes and players telling the club that it payed outside the Salary cap.

The players situation will be a mixture of pressure from Coach / Media / Supporters ..As suggested older players being told that there gravy train has run out IE Campo / Lappin / Whitnall.
Some of the second chanes will be pissed that some players havnt put in ie T-Bird and Teague both unhappy how some of there fellow players are playing.. And of course some players have had the riot act and told you prob not gonna be here cause yer not good enough.

Well i have read whether its on the Blues supporter sites or from the Media i reckon out of our recycled players maybe only 25% will still have a gig so no wonder there are some unhappy players .. or that there cash trough has dried up..

The club has been a mess for 4 years we were in a situation going down hill to the point of no return this year our off field results look better we have started to get our debts under control .. we have some stability in the coaching prospect .. .we know there will be changes end of the year. At our present stage we look to be ending into draft territory so will get a much needed injection of POTENTIAL talent. Hopefully we can grab a big name player in the PSD and maybe in the trade. And we will have some more young talent which we will see more of who have been maturing in the Bullants.

But Pagan is here for 1-2 Years 3 if he lasts his contract.

We will not go down a path and pay Pagan to coach another club be realistic its just not gonna happen

Show me a club that is on the bottom and there is no unrest in the ranks?

Show me a club that is on the bottom of the ladder where the supporters are not starting to ask for the coaches head?

So nothing new here:

BUT:

1) Show me a club which when it was at the bottom with a shit list was denied drafts for 2 years. What are you expecting? Even those who receive those top picks take some time to return to form.

2) Clubs who sack their coach "just" because of a wooden spoon don't normally just turn it around. This move is really only justified when people like Frawley and Schwab are coaching. People who had picks, who had the time and still end up bottom.

3) Show me a Club who would sack its coach the first year into a new 3-year contract.


So, while the season is a major disappointment for many (and myself) - I wont let myself suck into a Richmond culture (prior to given Wallace a 5 year contract to counter exactly this "sack the coach culture"). I wont. If we still are rock bottom in 2 years - it's a different thing - but we wont.

The AFL today is not the AFL when people like Walls got sacked - there are no quick fixes any more. The road back from the extraordinary situation of being denied draft picks for 2 years when we had the worst list in the AFL is unique. The 10 wins last year are a testament to what a great coach DP actually is….taking our list into account.

The way back is extremely hard and no wonder some people (players & supporters) "crack" and become negative. But I doubt Fev would have re-signed if the list was in total disarray.

I am sure Collo and DP are aware of the situation and have plans in place. I just won’t buy into the crap going around - I have changed my priorities for this winter while still attending home games to support the team. After a period of anger I just count the days until late August and then will rekindle my interest to see who we will pick up and who we will get rid off. (players only please ).

If the people with influence at Carlton can not withstand the "wooden spoon" decease and starts looking to blame DP - then we are clearly doomed as a club. The unique situation we are in demands unique resilience.

If people start spreading unrest this year to unsettle board and coach they do not have the long-term interest and survival of the Club at heart. If Board and Coach fail to make progress in 2 years it is an entirely different case. But as mentioned - I doubt that. So be patient and support your club - study Richmond history and relax. Deep breath....

I knew there is a reason why I dont post much anymore.

1. I did specifically state that I would prefer people to respond based on thought rather than emotion and to try to avoid personal comments. OBVIOUSLY YOU CANT READ. If you dont like what I have written them come back with constructive comments rather than 'What stupid thing to suggest...' drivel.

2. Thomas is on record saying that IF a better coach is available then he would be happy to stand down at the saints. Whether he would be willing to do so remains to be seen - however, IF carlton was looking for a change of coach, there is no reason why we could not mention to a few clubs that Pagan MAY be available.

3. At which point in my post have I suggested that we PAY pagan if we were to release him to the saints? Or have u just speaking out of your arse? The whole point of a st kilda (or freo or any other AFL club) coaching move for Pagan is so we DONT have to pay him out. In relation to paying Pagan out - IF it ever got to that stage where we had to get rid of Pagan and he wanted to be paid out - there is absolutely NO WAY that I would pay Pagan to coach another club - I'd rather sack him and end his AFL coaching career in disgrace (ie would ensure that another club couldnt touch him for the term of the contract that we have to pay him out for).
However, for the hypothetical that I proposed - if Pagan is on 600k next year, the saints might consider paying the full amount to 'poach' a premiership coach (given the state of their playing list) - Most clubs in such a situation would consider it a reasonable salary given the stakes at that point in time. If for example they only want to pay 450k, then it will be up to Pagan to decide whether he wants to stay at carlton for 3 years trying to rebuild under difficult circumstances (and allow his coaching record to suffer) or to take a pay cut for the chance to coach another flag or two (and potentially be remembered as one of the greats). At Pagan's age, I doubt he would be THAT money focused given that he would have be already financially stable/successful.

4. When was the last time an untried coach was paid 500-600k? Are you suggesting worsfold, clarkson, laidley, craig are all being paid in excess of 500k/season to coach their respective clubs? Show me some facts to back up your claims.

5. Issues with the club and the playing list etc - I have no problem with the fact that our list needs to undergo changes in order for it to improve. That is a no brainer. What I do have an issue with is the underperformance of players (relative to ability - ie what they have shown as opposed to what they MIGHT show) and the lack of on field effort/competitiveness. Without blaming Pagan, it is a concern to me that this appears to be the second group of players that Pagan has lost. It is also a concern that players appear to have been told in front of the playing group that they arent up to league football - that is akin to public humiliation and in my view unacceptable in a work place. People are much more receptive to criticism if it is done discreetly (ie the statements could have been made in a 1 on 1 private meeting, as part of a midseason review etc).

Mine was not an emotional post but was in response to such a ludicrous suggestion. Why would Carlton who have just signed on Pagan for 3 years suggest he leaves the Blues to coach St-Kilda... i was suggesting that was a silly suggestion and wasnt going to happen.

If you read my Post your response statement 4 above i said you would be paying for a new unknown coach at 400 - 500K with the payout you would have on Pagan leaving the club either sacked as suggested by yourself or shifted onto the saints who would only look at a transfer if they wanted to replace Grant with the other club namely the Blues paying out 50%+ off his contract till the end of his contract.
SO Unkown coach in the suggested senario would be Blues paying 200K for unknown rookie coach + 300 to 400K for sacking / transfering Pagan IE 500-600K

My whole response initially was to suggest that after appointing Pagan we sack or transfer him is just very stupid and you suggest Collo / Sticks know whats happening but extend a contract and then decide end of the year sorry we just made a $1.2 Million mistake.

I do think there is a plan and would at least like to make it to the end of the year and see how we go into 2006.
Do remember Carlton have not been in a position of being at rock bottom... imagine if you where supporting the saints 27 spoons i can only imagine how you would react. This is new for the Blues and we dont want to ventur back here in a hurry... Also there is no quick fix this club has been torpedoed by the AFL / our previous Admin our stupid post 1995 policies in list management. It will take a lot of hard work to get us back to a competative unit. But i belive the Blues will return faster than many other clubs if they had been put through similar penalties that we have endured.

Chicko,

IMO he wouldn't leave unless he was pushed though. So you're stuck with him unless we suddenly have a war chest full of funds we can dig into. If we pushed him, we'd have to pay out his entire contract, unless he breached terms (unlikely).

Even if he wanted to leave, I doubt he'd leave because he's stubborn. He'd rather turf out a whole lot of players than leave.

I alluded to player discontent in a post a few weeks ago...I think it starts with the senior players IMO.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Well, as far as I'm concerned, the senior players can go too. As sad as I would be to see some of them go, the club is, and always will be, bigger and more important than any one individual.

The players should stop being prima donnas and PLAY for the LOVE of the game, and love of the club, the jumper, and the love of the adulation, the love of doing for a living what so many others would sacrifice almost everything for.

_________________
And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

A madman who has won 2 premierships .
A madman the North players would do everything for.
A madman that has made the finals 9 times in 10 years with North...

A madman who really should pull out the chainsaw and REALLY go to work on the parasites .
Look it mightnt be as drastic as that but one thing is for sure... our leaders are softcocks... theres no doubt about that...
As a matter of fact theyre eunuchs rather than softcocks..

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

im lost

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R A D I C A L B R O T H E R S

Inspired by the One-Minute Sculptures of Erwin Wurm

"All in all is all we are..."

Yup...........

softcocks and eunuchs........good for nothin..........!


kindest regards tommi

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that'siti'mnotchangingthistagain......!

Eunuchs are good singers they say....

so maybe they have a career in karaoke somewhere in Thailand wearing skirts and make up after footy. ...

Cant wait till that group of players are gone and we can start again legitimately...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

PAGAN IS THE ONLY THING AT THE CARLTON FOOTBALL CLUB THAT REPRESENTS HOPE IN TERMS OF OUR ON FIELD SUCCESS. I DONT CARE IF HE SACKS EVERY SINGLE PLAYER THAT DOESN'T WANT TO ABIDE. REMEMBER THAT YOUR SUPPORT SHOULD BE FOR THE JUMPER NOT
A SMALL GROUP OF HACKS HOW CANT STAND THE HEAT.

I think Ive stated before that Ive had a bit of a mad vision on our current circumstances, which do in fact right themselves in the best of possible ways.

One milestone that I saw during that evening in 2001 was that the older coach (Pagan) left the club in controversial circumstances.

I dont know much about these circumstances, but this is what I have stated will happen, and right now, it does indeed seem as if things are headed in this direction.

We get a new coach, who is a young man in his first year of coaching at afl level.

We have a very very successful year in the first year of this new coaches contract, however the composition and quality of the list we have is in fact due to the work of Pagan rather than the new younger coach.

Actually I have this vision checklist now and Im ticking off things as they occur. The thing that looks like it is coming up now is the demise of Pagan.

Unlike some of you, who think that this will set us back if it occurs, let me assure you that actually it has the opposite effect and propels us forward.

You may not think so, but a glorious future awaits the Carlton faithful.

We indeed live in very interesting times...

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My Blue Heaven

And I have a vision that some people here are just full of manure....

....and I have a vision of Campo dressed in drag singing "I am Woman".. in some beach resort town in Thailand when hes done with footy..

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

hmm thought he was doin that week in week out anyways

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Can smell the gf its there for the taking we are the form side

Your vision sounds wonderful, but I'll back reality and Dennis all the same.

I just hope that the club is able to be as ruthless as it needs to be.

We do have issues with player attitudes and a very bad problem with leadership - or the lack of appropriate leadership.

It does right itself though, but not before quite a few shocks and surprises.

Pagan is correct in what he is demanding, but other players have a number of attitude issues that need to be sorted through.

For many of these, that sorting through process will not be undertaken at Carlton.

In some ways I think that Pagan might end up being a bit of a scapegoat for the problems that started with others.

His coaching time at Carlton for him may be looked back on as him accepting a poisoned chalice.

He will have done his very best and put in place the building blocks for a new Carlton, but another coach will reap the rewards of this.

Incidentally, the vision ended with Carlton winning a premiership with a young first year coach in charge of a very young team.

The premiership was won from a very low spot in the final 8.

We pinched a flag in a year that was meant to be a rebuilding year. No one rated us at all..

Carltons success in this way angered many, but we won this 17th premiership fair and square. Twas a glorious victory.

Afterwards we were a team that was as it has been for much of our history - always a chance for finals glory, in other words, our time of crisis had passed..

believe whatever you want, but as far as I am concerned, although there is no guarantee of this turning out this way exactly, it certainly seems to me as if many of the things that were given to me about our demise and recovery are in fact coming true.

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My Blue Heaven

Can I have a taste of what you are smoking... please....