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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:02 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Rod Waddell wrote:
Yes lets not get started on that Wiggins clan :roll:

Interesting re those bulldog players. GWS who would you have listed say circa Rd 20 2004. Very few were setting the place alight and many may have been languishing in the seconds (cue Sedat). Amazing transformation once they secured a reasonable coach. Hey perhaps we should do that!......oops that's right we do already have a reasonable coach.


This time last year obviously Murphy was already a gun. Other than that I'd have been happy to pick up any of Giansiracusa, Hahn or Gilbee in a trade. Skipper was always going to take longer being a big fella. Hargrave I never noticed much and the other three were from the younger year.

I'm a big fan of giving all draftees four years to prove themselves and I don't think I would have delisted any of them after their first four years. That doesn't mean that I expect them to be complete footballers after those four years are up. At 22yo they've still got loads to learn just that they need to have shown that they have the potential to be complete footballers with good coaching.

Delisting a guy like Brayden Shaw after two injury interupted seasons is an indictment on the selection not the kid. If he's not up to it at 20yo then he wasn't at 18 and they should never have picked him in the first place.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:36 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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7dominator wrote:
Can we make a sticky of this.Perhaps then when the next Elliot apologist or "head in the sand" supporter tries to argue that things were fine in 2002,can be quickly put in line!

Here is the list that Pagan inherited at the end of 2002..WITHOUT the benefit of draft picks

Allan...Injury problems and loss of form
Beasy...Did'nt cut it and is now struggling at Bendigo
Beaumont...Finished when he went to the Hawks.Struggling and only 29 now.
Bradley....was 38
Bray....who?
Campbell....No good
Camporeale..
Christou...Struggled with injury and form...finished
Cranage...no good
Davies...
Davis....No good
Doering....Good VFL footballer
Eccles...no good
Fletcher....no good
Fevola.....
Franchina...Was struggling
Freeborn...Just!
Gallagher....who
Hickmott...finished...was about to turn 31
Hotton...Was 29 and struggling.
Houlahan...
Hulme...Given plenty of chances
Kouta.....Crippled with injury
Lappin...
Livingston.....Still has'nt made it!
Mansfield...Too old Too slow
Manton....Nearing the end
Mathews....did'nt make it
McKay....Great but was 32!
McKernan....Nuff said!
Merrington...Did'nt cut it!
Murphy....Struggling at Essendon*
O.Keefe....Playing at Sandy
Pickering....Got sacked at Richmond
Plunkett....not good enough
Prendergast....A Pagan favourite who still cannot get a game!
Ratten....Great,but was 31
Smith....who
Sporn....Still struggling
Thornton...
Waite......
Whitnall....
Wiggins....Still struggling


.


Ans here is another one, it's three years later and the result is the same, another wooden spoon, I'd say it's equally as sobering :

Jordan Bannister
Adam Bentick
Eddie Betts
Luke Blackwell
Glen Bowyer
Chris Bryan
Scott Camporeale
Andrew Carrazzo
Callum Chambers
David Clarke
Justin Davies
Adrian Deluca
Brendan Fevola
Bradley Fisher
Barnaby French
Adam Hartlett
Ryan Houlihan
Brett Johnson
Anthony Koutoufides
Matthew Lappin
Luke Livingston
Troy Longmuir
Cory McGrath
Digby Morrell
Karl Norman
Ian Prendergast
Anthony Raso
Jordan Russell
Heath Scotland
Kade Simpson
Trent Sporn
Nick Stevens
David Teague
Bret Thornton
Jarrad Waite
Andrew Walker
Lance Whitnall
Simon Wiggins

So what's your point ??

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 6:45 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Jordan Bannister
Adam Bentick
Eddie Betts
Luke Blackwell

Glen Bowyer
Chris Bryan
Scott Camporeale
Andrew Carrazzo
Callum Chambers
David Clarke
Justin Davies
Adrian Deluca
Brendan Fevola
Bradley Fisher
Barnaby French
Adam Hartlett
Ryan Houlihan
Brett Johnson
Anthony Koutoufides
Matthew Lappin
Luke Livingston
Troy Longmuir
Cory McGrath
Digby Morrell
Karl Norman
Ian Prendergast
Anthony Raso
Jordan Russell
Heath Scotland
Kade Simpson
Trent Sporn
Nick Stevens
David Teague
Bret Thornton
Jarrad Waite
Andrew Walker

Lance Whitnall
Simon Wiggins

I think the point is that those in bold have been added to the list since then despite the penalties etc and give us hope where there was none.

Things were obviously not fine in 2002 and whilst we're not winning a lot of games at the moment it's only those with Elliott colored glasses who don't seem to see any progression from where we were.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:25 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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GWS wrote:

Things were obviously not fine in 2002 and whilst we're not winning a lot of games at the moment it's only those with Elliott colored glasses who don't seem to see any progression from where we were.


Agreed, atleast there is youth now with a bit of upside. There was little if any of that in the 2002 list.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:38 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Rod Waddell wrote:
Blue Bird wrote:
No need for a sticky - should be etched in all our minds Dom. Along with the image of Delutis claiming to be the annointed one at that meeting.


Sure good ol Col made a big booby that night.............has anyone not made a mistake in their life.

I reckon it's time Col comes back into the fold and takes up a possie on the board. The board has had no real change in personnel for 3 years and were right for the moment. That moment has now passed. Time for some youthful exhuberance and energy.


Agree, Rod. We had this conversation the other day, and whilst DeLutis came across as an arrogant prick with a bad mouth on THAT night, (everyone makes mistakes) he should be welcomed back as he's a pretty good businessman.

The current board, with the exception of a few, have done very little, and have heard that some don't have the time anymore!!! We need an injection of astute people on the board as well!!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:44 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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GWS wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
Agree with that. Regarding 'Black Friday' I would also say that Nick Stevens cancels out one of the selections as he's a ready made player that fell into our lap.


Can't agree with this.

This is like the assumption that we made up for Goddard and Wells with Simpson and Fisher. Simpson and Fisher may end up better than Goddard and Wells or they may not but we should have had "Simpson, Fisher, Goddard and Wells" rather than just two of them.

So are Fisher, Simpson and Stevens compensation for Goddard and Wells?

We should have had all of them.



(Patrick Wiggins was also selected in 1999 and is the only "miss" from that period)


I never said Fisher and Simpson replaced Goddard and Wells, don't agree with that.

Well I was actually thinking about this last night. If we had picked Goddard and Wells they'd have replaced two of the players we ended up drafting. Assuming we'd have drafted Mick Maryn regardless, as we needed a gorilla and Pagan was going to get him to 300 games, that would have left Fisher and Norman undrafted.

Potentially we'd have drafted

Goddard
Wells
Simpson
Croad
Martyn

Rather than

Simpson
Croad
Fisher
Norman
Martyn

We had Pick 11 in the rookie draft too, so Fisher may have gone before that.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:25 pm 
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Horrie Clover

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So does this mean that we will have another spill of the board since we are headed for another spoon?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:39 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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GWS wrote:
I think the point is that those in bold have been added to the list since then despite the penalties etc and give us hope where there was none.

Things were obviously not fine in 2002 and whilst we're not winning a lot of games at the moment it's only those with Elliott colored glasses who don't seem to see any progression from where we were.


I know that there is hope with the influx of young players, hell, we'd be in even more poo (if that is possible) if they had of brought in another couple of O'Reilly & McGuane types.

We had to move on from Elliott's reign, we could not have fallen any further surely. However, three years on and it's another spoon, some people would argue we haven't made any progress at all since then.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:41 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Loyal Carltonian wrote:
So does this mean that we will have another spill of the board since we are headed for another spoon?


LC not necessarily. I think at the AGM 3 spots are required to go up per the constitution - can someone confirm?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 10:03 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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TheSheik wrote:
7dominator wrote:
Can we make a sticky of this.Perhaps then when the next Elliot apologist or "head in the sand" supporter tries to argue that things were fine in 2002,can be quickly put in line!

Here is the list that Pagan inherited at the end of 2002..WITHOUT the benefit of draft picks

Allan...Injury problems and loss of form
Beasy...Did'nt cut it and is now struggling at Bendigo
Beaumont...Finished when he went to the Hawks.Struggling and only 29 now.
Bradley....was 38
Bray....who?
Campbell....No good
Camporeale..
Christou...Struggled with injury and form...finished
Cranage...no good
Davies...
Davis....No good
Doering....Good VFL footballer
Eccles...no good
Fletcher....no good
Fevola.....
Franchina...Was struggling
Freeborn...Just!
Gallagher....who
Hickmott...finished...was about to turn 31
Hotton...Was 29 and struggling.
Houlahan...
Hulme...Given plenty of chances
Kouta.....Crippled with injury
Lappin...
Livingston.....Still has'nt made it!
Mansfield...Too old Too slow
Manton....Nearing the end
Mathews....did'nt make it
McKay....Great but was 32!
McKernan....Nuff said!
Merrington...Did'nt cut it!
Murphy....Struggling at Essendon*
O.Keefe....Playing at Sandy
Pickering....Got sacked at Richmond
Plunkett....not good enough
Prendergast....A Pagan favourite who still cannot get a game!
Ratten....Great,but was 31
Smith....who
Sporn....Still struggling
Thornton...
Waite......
Whitnall....
Wiggins....Still struggling


.


Ans here is another one, it's three years later and the result is the same, another wooden spoon, I'd say it's equally as sobering :

Jordan Bannister
Adam Bentick
Eddie Betts
Luke Blackwell
Glen Bowyer
Chris Bryan
Scott Camporeale
Andrew Carrazzo
Callum Chambers
David Clarke
Justin Davies
Adrian Deluca
Brendan Fevola
Bradley Fisher
Barnaby French
Adam Hartlett
Ryan Houlihan
Brett Johnson
Anthony Koutoufides
Matthew Lappin
Luke Livingston
Troy Longmuir
Cory McGrath
Digby Morrell
Karl Norman
Ian Prendergast
Anthony Raso
Jordan Russell
Heath Scotland
Kade Simpson
Trent Sporn
Nick Stevens
David Teague
Bret Thornton
Jarrad Waite
Andrew Walker
Lance Whitnall
Simon Wiggins

So what's your point ??


Seems you might like to READ all the threads Sheik....

The point is, that in 2002,.. Dennis Pagan inherited the worst list in my Lifetime as a Carlton supporter!...Structually and and in hindsight quality.

Added to this NO draft picks..

It was meant to illustrate that OUR Coach had S.F.A to work with and does'nt deserve the pasting that some maybe quick give..

As for your list,whilst there are many that rank equally poorly they still remain a legacy of what was left by the previously inept administration.

You Sheik, for a number of years have been very quick to call for mass sackings but have never indicated where the mysterious replacements would come from!

When you are forced to take players in the latter part of the Draft,it becomes a raffle and that is why you end up with the players that still proliferate on our list.The main difference between the list of 2002 and now, to my my mind, is a core group of youngsters who will offer more than what was available to Dennis on his recruitment.

Sheik,you've always delighted in the negativity but not once have you convinced me with any reasoned arguements.Sack the lot of them has always been your philosophy.

All you have ever offered is a plethora of names based seemingly on what you have read from others or on supposed availability.Forget if they can actually play?

I guess if you come up with enough names you will be right sooner or later?...How many have ou thrown up already in the last 6 months based on what you have read on Bigfooty etc?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 12:18 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Love the people who are quick to point out the problems but have no answers.

The big turn over of lists doesnt work unless youre gunning for the next Stevie Kenna, Bannister Bowyer,Mott etc... and bring in the next lot of international rookies form Chile....

Only one way of building a list and thats drafting kids especially early picks.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:06 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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Synbad wrote:
Only one way of building a list and thats drafting kids especially early picks.


I highlighted this sentence for you 7Dom because that is the very answer I was going to give, go to the draft, keep bloody drafting until you get enough talent on the list to challenge for a flag. There's no point in recycling other clubs discards in the hope that they will improve. Whilst there is always the chance that it can happen, if you are honest with yourself, you'll acknowledge that clubs don't giveaway quality players that easily these days.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:28 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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7dominator wrote:
As for your list,whilst there are many that rank equally poorly they still remain a legacy of what was left by the previously inept administration.

You Sheik, for a number of years have been very quick to call for mass sackings but have never indicated where the mysterious replacements would come from!


And the current administration decided to offload some of the poop (Allan, Murphy etc) and replace them with players even worse than they were. I agree that those players had to go but why did they have to pick-up the players they did ?? McGrath, Morrell, Harford, Johnson etc had plenty of people on TBV hoopin' & a hollerin' at how well we'd done during draft week. In fact one of the comments I remember quite vividly was "we own this trade week". :shock: And look where they have got us ??

I will continue to call for mass sackings whilst we wallow in our own melancholy at the bottom of the ladder. We are copping drubbings now so what difference will it make if we play 18yo kids who have been picked up through the draft ?? So what if we cop another flogging, do you reckon we'll be able to tell the difference ?? At least with the kids playing, your weekly 'Positives' thread may have some semblance of excitement about a players progress instead of the usual 'the captain showed some leadership' sort of saccharinne shyte.

The draft is now the ONLY way to build a list, there are no shortcuts, it's not like the old days where we could throw money at whoever we wanted. This new system was designed to bring us down and by god it has had it's desired effect. But stupidly we haven't helped ourselves by making stupid decisions in the administrative side of the club.

I couldn't give a rat's clack what you think of me researching young draftees, I enjoy it and will continue to do. However, until you accept the fact that we must continue drafting, drafting and drafting some more, we will never improve and get back up the ladder.

Furthermore, our whole recruiting program needs a complete revamp, I have been saying this for years, even before the poop hit the fan. We need to have people scrutinising every league in the country and by that, I don't mean watch just one game a year either. We need a dossier on every league, the players to watch, their progress, their strengths & weaknesses. This may sound like going completely over the top but that is what it has come down to now, we have to work smarter AND harder than the other clubs in order to make up the lost ground and then streak ahead of them all once again.

Mature-age players, guys from the VFL, 'bush Coleman's' etc must be indentified and brought to the club. All of the guys in the TAC system get very well scrutinised, but what about the kids who aren't lucky enough to get on a TAC list ??

Keep turning them over, the list has to keep changing every year. Not only is that part of the rules but it's the only way to get somewhere. No time for sentiment now, favourite players have to be axed if they are not up to it, the fans are irrelevant when it comes to the playing list.

Football is a business, a very big business, yet we run our club like it's a corner milk-bar. Time to get far more professional than we ever have. Flick anyone and everyone who isn't up to the high standard we have to set (and that goes for the admin people as well).

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 7:41 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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TheSheik wrote:
I will continue to call for mass sackings whilst we wallow in our own melancholy at the bottom of the ladder.

And trade Stevens next year! :roll:
TheSheik wrote:
This new system was designed to bring us down and by god it has had it's desired effect. But stupidly we haven't helped ourselves by making stupid decisions in the administrative side of the club.

We brought ourselves down with poor drafting, trading for hasbeens and gilding the lily with player contracts! The AFL just hit us square in the nuts after we already castrated ourselves! :evil:
TheSheik wrote:
Football is a business, a very big business, yet we run our club like it's a corner milk-bar.

Milk bars have tastier duds! :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:31 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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JuzzCarlton wrote:
TheSheik wrote:
This new system was designed to bring us down and by god it has had it's desired effect. But stupidly we haven't helped ourselves by making stupid decisions in the administrative side of the club.

We brought ourselves down with poor drafting, trading for hasbeens and gilding the lily with player contracts! The AFL just hit us square in the nuts after we already castrated ourselves! :evil:


Is there an echo in here ....... ??

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:41 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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The 2002 side all fit and playing would belt the sh!t out of the current side which is the REAL worst Carlton side of all time.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:21 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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TheSheik wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Only one way of building a list and thats drafting kids especially early picks.


I highlighted this sentence for you 7Dom because that is the very answer I was going to give, go to the draft, keep bloody drafting until you get enough talent on the list to challenge for a flag. There's no point in recycling other clubs discards in the hope that they will improve. Whilst there is always the chance that it can happen, if you are honest with yourself, you'll acknowledge that clubs don't giveaway quality players that easily these days.


Interested in your view Sheik, particularly that anytime a name is mentioned on any of the forums of a mature age player(sight unseen for you) you have your hand up based on what someone has written or that ther big bodied statistics fit the bill!

Forget if they can play the Game or not...

You have a history of coming up with plenty of names but as i have suggested previously volume inevitably means you can be right...Not for the right reasons however!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:27 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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TheGame wrote:
The 2002 side all fit and playing would belt the sh!t out of the current side which is the REAL worst Carlton side of all time.


Care to select a team from those i have listed???

Please take into account how they were palying at the time and not from an historical perspective...

Additionally can you advise which of the younger players of 2002 would be any better than now?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:33 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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I agree with the Sheik that the list needs a decent cull but also appeciate you cant fill it up with others clubs rubbish or 3rd raters and that the draft and early picks is the only way to get quality. Its very rare these days to get a real quality player with a normal trade and buying your way out of trouble by being able to poach greedy players also seems a thing of the past. Its going to take at least three good years of drafting with early picks to assemble some quality players who can become part of our core group and team leaders......unless we get lucky with some down the order picks and some silly deals from other clubs...as Malcom Blight said" enjoy the ride"

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 4:43 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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I don't need to make any teams. The 2002 team was crippled with injuries, this years side is not. The current mob have received some of the worst beltings in the clubs history. The current list is far worse.

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