How about at the same time our good players help our younger players by showing them how to play for the team and not themselves, you know, be accountable, do more than run around the back for the handball receive, turn up for pre-season fit etc etc

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

We dont have a quality second tier to step up.
How does this second tier exist when our top 4 players take upwards of 30% of our TPP?
What do we offer them, bananas?

I love this theory about keeping our senior players.
They want top dollar for average performance.
Anyone who thinks Red is worth 400k+ is dreaming. What are we paying him for? Track record? What has he offered in performance, preparation or development in the past 3 years.

The club is taking the perfect approach. Offer the players what they are worth. If they dont want it. @#$%&! off.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

http://www.couriermail.news.com.au/comm ... 89,00.html



Sure it aint working is it Surrey

Nothing wrong with having 5 leaders day in day out either Effes.
You shouldn't have to make 5 players captain for them to lead.
They will automatically lead the group "if" they had leadership qualities.
Captains possie should be held higher than that.

I go to the football and i expect you do to so can we stick to the argument and not dick wagging about who goes or doesn't.

top 6

Kouta - can't run fast, is not accountable. Best days behind.

Lance - had minimal impact until shifted back where he played as a loose and we played high scoring football we kicked a lot, they kicked a lot. Slow and cannot chase any player down.

Campo - no speed left, loose, even in defense he points to the kids to pick up his man, no penetration in kicking. Best days well gone.

Lappin. Good footballer, had a bad year but he is not worth a three year deal. Stiff shit we all get older.


Fev - I'd keep except for a super trade but its borderline for me.

Houla - i assume this is who you mean. Soft - not in going for the hard ball, that doesn't bother me as much as his soft second or third efforts. Will not chase hard ever! Has he ever laid a tackle on because he chased someone and actually caught them. When chasing he is slower than Lance!



I repeat this top six has delievered stuff all the past four years because they are not a very good top 6. name another club where they would be top 6.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

For starter DB Fev and Houlihan are not in the top six - Replace with Stevens and French.

and as I said before Kouta - Campo and Lappins effect on a game would be far greater if they could be rotated off the ground.
Does any midfeilder play a full 100 minutes of football other than ours. Forget the fact about how much they are paid watch a game and look at who is contributing . Then make your assessment of the playing group

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Geez if those blokes are offering us "nothing" yet finishing in the top 6 in the Best and Fairest then what are blokes like Wiggins, Sporn etc offering? Can't be very much can it?!

Look as far as I can see it there's absolutely no reason why blokes like Davies, Sporn, Prendergast, Livo, Wiggins etc etc haven't stepped up by now. The fact that they hasn't is nobody's fault but their own. They have been in the system for 5 years now, they are not straight out of the TAC Cup and don't need any more time. The fact that we have so few blokes stepping up at this age is hurting us more than Campo, Lance, Lappin etc who in my opinion are not the problem for us.

Why can't any of the abovementioned blokes make a name for himself? Not even a top 10 finish in the B and F? I'm not asking them to dominate the competition I'm asking for some tangible signs that after 5 years in the bloody system that they step up a level or two. Waite has shown he can do it, Fisher, Simmo has shown more in 5 minutes, Carrazzo too etc. And don't give me the rubbish that Campo, Lance, Lappin etc are the reason why these guys are not coming on, every player charts his own course, sure a bit of leadership wouldn't hurt but it's not to blame for the abovementioned players failing to progress sufficiently.

Campo, Lance, Lappin, Kouta etc sure they have their deficiencies but at least they do something for the club, find the footy being one of them. When was the last time Wiggins had 20 possessions in a match? Davies? Sporn?

We need these blokes to step up and help out our GOOD players in Lance, Campo etc etc.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

How does this explain why after 5 years Wiggins, Davies, Sporn, Livo and Prendergast have not taken the next step? What does that have to do with money?

Whitnall has had a lean 3 or 4 years BV but finished 3rd this season in the B and F. Everyone knows he's overpaid and accordingly will have to take a paycut, which nobody is disputing is undeserved. I don't understand your point? Where did any of the abovementioned blokes finish in a B and F?

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

Mate, you are not looking at the bigger picture. The fact of the matter is that Campo, Kouta and Lappin will not be playing for Carlton when we are good enough to challenege for a flag. Forget about them being in the top 6 players in our all conquering 2005 season. Start thinking about which 6 players we can build a side around instead.

Duds like Prenda are the reason why we are crap. A few people here blame the highly paid players because they don't want to blame the over the hill coach who they believe is the messiah. (They know now he is not but are too stubborn to admit it.)

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

My point is that I dont care whose "fault" it is.
Maybe Wiggins, Davies etc are just not good enough.
How is it their "fault"?

I'm not interested in living in the past.
Our TPP is in need of a total overhaul. Our highest paid players are not delivering to a standard required.
Our list needs to be totally refurbished from today.
If Davies isnt good enough, turf him or trade him.
If Lance or Campo dont accept what we are offering, get rid of them.
We need a structure for our player payments and we must stick to it.

Forget about who is to blame. Start afresh from today and go forward with a framework designed to reinvigorate the club.
Those who are not with us are against us.

If Lance feels he is above our offer, thats his decision.
See ya later.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

well firstly no one here has mentioned trading Stevo or French so you mean top 4.

Now out of the top 4 no one has mentioned kouta 9cos no one would take him so that leaves 3.

Now we have Lance - do you seriously think we can build a forward line around lance? or do you want to build a backline around him? neither - he's a good third option, great, we need first and seconf options.

Fev - I've said enough on him.

Campo - what impact does he have on a game - not much obviosuly because we cannot win a game. Campo collects the cheap kicks on the ground and then points fingers at young players to pick up his man when he can't be bothered - this is not in the dying minutes of the forth quater after a hard slog but about 15 minutes into the first quarter after afew gallops.

also we are talking about TRADING so you have to use players other sides might want. Forget Sporn, Prenda etc. they are footsoldiers nothing more.

But if we could get a first round & player for Lance I'd jump at it. If we could get anything for Campo I'd jump at it.

Fev I'd want a great deal, but if it was offewred i'd jump at it.

None of these guys have shown they will help this club move forward. Thats what I want, not an old players home to nod off in the winter sun and remember past glories, I want A graders still fresh enough to do the hard yards.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

How have they shown they will not help move the club forward danny? Of course they won't be around in 5 years time - but it's not their fault that players like Sporn, Davies, Wiggo etc aren't up to it. Top 6 of the Best and Fairest doesn't lie!

They've done more than most of the other players on our list though and that is the problem. We have nothing underneath these good players apart from a few kids.

Why is it so hard to see? In my opinion the problem is as you say danny - Sporn, Prender, Wiggo etc are great blokes but just 'foot soldiers' - not one of a group of about 5 or 6 has stood up and taken the next step? Why? Probably because they're not good enough, but that's irrelevant. The fact is that as we stand they've been in the system 5 years but you wouldn't know it.

You say Campo collects cheap kicks - and he does, but he gets the bloody footy at least, which is more than can be said for most of our players. You can't win the game without the ball. Stevens also gets cheap kicks, doesn't get criticised for it though, which I don't understand.

Lance Whitnall I believe gives everything week in week out, forward or back, had a very good year and got 3rd in the B and F. He's had a lean couple of seasons but he is a commodity to us and we shouldn't give him away lightly.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

At the end of the day we are going to be crap for the next 3 years whichever way we go. For mine we might as well be crap without Whitnall, Lappo and Campo (and maybe Fev), and at least get some potential into our squad.

What is the point of keeping these guys, still being crap, and having less potential coming through? And don't feed me the 'you can't expose the youngsters as they we will get flogged' - well hello but we are getting flogged with these so called leaders in the team anyway.

If the 4 players I mentioned above showed leadership then I'd be all for keeping them. The sad reality is that Brett Delideo shows more leadership than any of these guys.

so would you build a forward line around him? or a backline/ is he your best/2nd best forward/backman?

my answer is no i wouldn;t, he is cream. We have a shit list, no time for cream, lets get the numbers 1 & 2. How? By trading. Who can we trade umm lance, Fev Stevo French houla maybe lappin, maybe campo. Okay Stevo keep, he plays in the midfield, campo no longer does (hmm wonder why).
French keep - we have no other ruckman.

Lance Trade

Houla Trade
etc.

see i agree the middle teir is screwed so how to fix it is the question not sit on our arses with the same six getting older and weaker and popinting at it.

Seriously if we can get a good trade for Lance i am all for it. It could mean we get another top shelf and that is what we need. We're just arguing on how to get it.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You would have a side that would get beaten by 10 goals every game.

Who cares?

Sponsors
Supporters

As a business we need to be competitive at least. Not sure how the club would go spending the next 4-6 years at the foot of the ladder.

If you wish to go young there are plenty of blokes of the list that can make room.

I don't think we could afford to loose them all (Whitnall, Fevola, Campo, Lappin).

I suggest we all wait and see.

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Working alone. At the coalface. Scott's gone for lunch! Said he would be back in 30 mins.

I'm not saying that players like Lance are untradeable Danny - of course, for the right deal then you'd have to look at it.

BUT the thing you do in my opinion is try to ADD TO the good players you already have. That is, add to Campo, Lance, Lappin etc. We have some high picks this year so we can do that. Of course if we can get a good trade we'd be silly not to take some more high picks. But the general philosophy for mine has to be that you try to add to the talent already at your disposal, not sacrifice it for in some cases lesser talent, what good does that do?

What I am saying is that it's stupid to say that these blokes are not contributing, of course they are contributing, they are being let down by players that are simply not up to it, the Wiggins', Sporns etc.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

I'm a member and I could live with it if I thought the club was trying to turn itself around and was being proactive about it rather than waiting for it to happen. We've had record memberships in years where we've been at our lowest ebb in modern times. I don't buy the argument that supporters and sponsors would drop off dramatically.

We finished last this year with these guys leading the team. If they stay we'll probably finish last next year, if they go we'll probably finish last as well (maybe with a lower percentage), but at least we might have an extra 3 or 4 top 30 draft picks in our squad.

For the record I'd keep Fev, but Lance, Campo, and if he won't except a 2 year deal Lappin, can all go.

When the Saints smashed Brisbane in Rd 22 why didn't Voss stand up and turn things around? Some here expect Kouta and Campo to do this but Voss couldn't do it. Is Voss a down hill skier, only plays good in a good team? Of course not, he is not a magician and neither are our leaders.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Please don't compare Michael Voss to any of our leaders.

They aren't even in the same league as Voss in terms of leadership.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24