I think a lot of people agreed.

I hoped and expected us to make top 4 last year.

Why wouldn't that have been the expectation after our finish to 2011?

Top 4 should should be our expectation again this year.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

So because we made the finals in 2011 we should be top 4 in 2013....?!

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It's never as good as it looks and it's never as bad as it seems.

Break it down - who are the A grade players/potential A grade players

Judd- A grade
Murphy - A grade

potential
Gibbs- potential A grade
Kreuzer - potential A grade
Betts- potential A grade
Yarran - potential A grade

That is it. All the others at best can be B +

The question is - how do you get these players into their most damaging positions?
All of the six above should play some time in the midfield except Eddie is far more comfortable as a forward and should play mainly forward.

Yarran needs to be in a spot where he can cause maximum damage to the opposition. That is up to the coach to work that out, but it should be a priority...where does Yarran play? Are the opposition going to just drag him back to fullback and move a potential A grade player out of the action. I am glad Gibbs is out of the hb flank and playing midfield for starters that is a good move.

Not sure why you're rolling your eyes at that.

We went close to beating the Eagles interstate and making a prelim final. You'd expect some improvement from what was still a relatively young list, our expectation was to make top 4 last year, had a bad run with injuries, the coach lost his job because we didn't make the finals, we hired a new coach and you don't think there should be an expectation we improve?

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

I'd add Henderson to your potential list. Given an injury free couple of years and good development he could be an A grade CHB.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

I hope we improve on last year, but I don't see how anyone can realistically expect us to be top 4. What happened 2 years ago is irrelevant. All I'm looking for this year are indications that the side is coming together in such a way that the players all know and understand their roles in the team. I want to see them coming together as a cohesive unit with a clear system and structure in the way they play, and seeing it stand up under pressure. It may take Malthouse a full year to get the players playing the way he wants them to play, and he may decide at the end of the season that he needs to clear out a few. I reckon Malthouse knows he is facing a medium-to-long term project to make us premiership contenders. Managing the expectations of deluded Carlton supporters and sections of the media will be a challenge for him. When you sack the coach and bring in a new one with a totally different game style, you have to be ready to take a step backwards to take 2 steps forward.

I would love to be wrong, but I think top 4 in 2013 is quite fanciful. As I said this time last year, I think a lot would have to go right for us to even make the 8. I see us as one of those teams that could finish anywhere between 5th and 12th, depending on luck with injuries and in close games. I've seen nothing from our current list of players that makes me think we are any better than that.

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It's never as good as it looks and it's never as bad as it seems.

2011 is totally relevant.

Basically the same group of players, all 2 years advanced. We had what everyone called a dud coach, now we have a premiership winning coach.

The competition and our opposition have changed as well, some have got worse, some have got better.

A lot went wrong last year for us to miss the finals. Almost got there with a horror injury run, a coach who couldn't coach and doubts over whether the players were really playing for him.

Again, not sure why you're calling fans who expect top 4 deluded.

I take your point on Malthouse needing time to settle in, review the list, make some list changes and maybe taking a medium-long term approach, but I don't see any reason why our window can't be open now.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Fremantle made the preliminary final in 2006 and then didn't play finals again until 2010. That happens. Teams do go backwards, or perhaps they stagnate and the competition goes past them.

OK, answer me this - why will we be better than Haw, Sydney, Adel or Coll in 2013? One of them will have to make way for us to take their spot in the top 4. And what makes us better than WCE, Geel, Freo, North, Rich, & Ess in 2013? (and please don't say it's because we made the semi finals in 2011).

Seriously, I want to understand what you see in our game style and depth that gives you confidence we'll be top 4 this year.

TBB, I'm not being a smart arse, I honestly want to believe it. I just can't see it right now.

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It's never as good as it looks and it's never as bad as it seems.

Its not just based on 2011 but we're a team that made finals 3 years running and missed after a horror run with injuries last season. I don't see why our expectations should be going down.

Teams come in and out of finals all the time, sure. Fremantle took 4 years to get back there. On previous history one of the top 4 will drop out this season. There are probably 6-7 sides who could make top 4.

Why wouldn't we be ahead of Richmond, Essendon*, North Melbourne and St Kilda?

Tell me this, if we're not a team expecting to make top 4 or even finals, why did we replace our coach? Wasn't last year an adequate result for a team who is just hoping with a good run we could make finals?

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

I didn't say that my expectations are the same as the club's administration. In any event, perhaps they felt we would never win a flag under Ratten but that we might under Malthouse, even if it takes a few years....

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It's never as good as it looks and it's never as bad as it seems.

Can't agree with you on this abns. Ratten fell short on the club's expectations and paid the price. Fair enough. Malthouse has no excuses and as a premiership coach, I expect minimum top 6 finish in 2013. We have built a list via the draft and I refuse to believe that it's not good enough to win a premiership NOW. If it's not, then the club has failed in a lot of other area's!

Surrey the club has failed to put together a quality list considering our draft positioning over the last how many years.

This list will be culled at seasons end....there are far to many project players and our skill level is horrendous compared to even Brisbane!!

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Circumstance has no value. It is how one relates to a situation that has value. All true meaning resides in the personal relationship to a phenomenon, what it means to you.

2012, despite in being a year in which our list was decimated by injury, has clearly spooked quite a lot of people.

From 2008-2011 inclusive, we improved each year, falling a kick short of a preliminary final in 2011 with virtually the same list we have now.

We were 5-1 and 6-3 in 2012 before injuries really took hold of the list. But for injury, we would comfortably have qualified for the finals in 2012 and would likely have challenged for the top four. Our perceptions of our list and our prospects have been skewed by the unprecedented injury misfortune that befell the team in 2012.

We also now have a man who is considered by many to be one of the great coaches of modern times at the helm.

There's no reason (barring injury) why we should not have a good year.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

If we're any good we should still be able to have a good year even with injuries.

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#DonTheStash

That depends. Given a "normal" run with injuries, you're right and we should be able to overcome that. But if we lose all our KPPs at the same time again then we'll struggle.

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Formerly Blues-Back2003.

8'm hoping our 2012 is more like Geelong 2006 than freo 2006...

That was meant to read "I'm hoping..."

There is an element of natural talent in Henderson that could get him higher up the rungs, I agree with your point.

But based on the evidence before me right now I don't see any hope of him being A grade. Maybe down the track he will prove me wrong, but I would say perhaps B + is his best, but A grade is pure elite.
We have quite a few players who could be B+ (which is still great), but putting the A grade players/potential A grade in the positions where they do most damage to the opposition is the key.

Where does Yarran do most of his damage? It isn't in the back pocket. Get him into the play somehow as I really believe his contributions are team-lifting. You know that for Essendon* a Tim Watson goal was worth 2 goals from another player, same with Carey for North etc- A Yarran bit of brilliance - especially a goal - is worth 2 goals from another player. He adds a lot to building team confidence.

..i wouldn't say we have.. ..give me your premiership spine..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Jamison
Henderson
Judd
Waite
Casboult