yes I did, thank you for asking Sheik. "Everyone" would include him.

I think the errors have been made over the last ten years, as many have discussed previously - do we need to invoke again the cursed names of Devonport (For the pick that got Barry Hall), Mansfield O'Reilly, McKernan, Vance, Massie etc.

Fact is we loaded up on the draft in 2000 when it was a weak draft, we swapped picks for duds in strong drafts. All this adds up to a wooden spoon quality side - and then we lost our draft picks. We all know why we are where we are. Recruiting is tough, all sides make mistakes, but it's all about relative performance. We don't need to be perfect at recruiting but we need to be better at recruiting than all the other teams, particularly given the dire state of the list. So yes it does put more pressure on our new draftees. #1 pick is always under lots of pressure. People remember Anthony Banik and Richard Lounder, but I could barlely names anyone else in those drafts. And at a big club in a bad way, robbed of the #1 pick a few years back ie us, the pressure is going to be really great. But from the team, I won't cop last years woeful performances, but I'll settle for players improving a bit and really having a go.

PS There were only three in your list Sheik who were high draft picks, players picked in the 70s like DeLuca are a bonus if they play at all. I don't rate Longmuir either, but again it was a pick in the 70s, and McGrath and Bannister are a nil all draw with Murphy and Allan, maybe over time we might win this one 2-0 seeing the other two are gawn.

Everyone agrees we need more talent, lots more, and the only way to get it is via the draft. So Mr Hughes, you have a big, big job. Let's get it right.

no way am I leaving my ego at the front door Sheik or BV would steal it for sure! And Ck would probably piss on it, tommi would draw on it and deano would bloody well hug it...As for Tyrant, well we all know what he would do with it.... And verbs would try and talk to it.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Ego is not a dirty word.

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

And Synbad and I would fight over it

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

Someone always brings logic and well-reasoned posts to spoil the fun

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Sheik wrote..

First of all, let me further explain, I'm not talking about the guys picked up immediately last year or the year before, I'm confident two out of Blackwell, Hartlett. Walker & Russell will become 200 game players for us. What I'm looking at is those who should be performing infinitely better than they have given the amount of time they have been in the system. And this also applies to some of the trade deals.

Davies - way too erratic & prone to brainsnaps
Sporn - to become our CHB and taken at pick #10
Wiggins - he's a trier admittedly but has he actually improved at all ??
Livingston - I reckon this was a bummer though, I thought he was a good pick but just was grabbed way too high
DeLuca - will he ever take a one grab mark ??
Prendergast - great tank of petrol but is he really going to make it ??
Longmuir - once a dud always a dud
McGrath - second stringer at best
Bannister - flash in the pan
Chambers - will be a champ for the Ants

Apart from the Chambers, Longmuir & McGrath, those guys on that list are still considered 'young' but have been in the system for around 4-5 years but are not going to be the future of our football club.

We have been lucky with some solid pick-ups at cheap cost with Simpson & Fisher but late picks like that have saved our arse way from complete embarrassment way too often.

I could go back through the drafts and pick out the obvious names that stand out after we have drafted those bozos but that's too easy with the value of hindsight and a no-brainer. We didn't have the infrastructure in place then and still don't (even though it appears that the club is about to make the necessary changes) to identify the better credentialled players. This is the intent of my previous post, we should have done heaps better than we have over the past 4-5 years, if we had of, we would be much further down the track in the rebuilding stage.

Gerry Atric wrote..

PS There were only three in your list Sheik who were high draft picks, players picked in the 70s like DeLuca are a bonus if they play at all. I don't rate Longmuir either, but again it was a pick in the 70s, and McGrath and Bannister are a nil all draw with Murphy and Allan, maybe over time we might win this one 2-0 seeing the other two are gawn.

One of the things about hindsight Sheik is that is always 100% correct. What we need to do when discussing certain players is to find out what they were thought of at the time of being drafted i.e were they rated at all or did we pick their names out of our backside.

Now Gerry Atric has pointed out that the likes of Deluca, Bannister, McGrath, Longmuir and Chambers all came to CFC at the loss of very little i.e very late picks or the offloading of others past it. Their real worth to the club will be known midway thru 2006 I suspect. Deluca was injured most of last year as was Longmuir. Bannister was poor after a good 2004. Chambers showed he could play but was inconsistent. McGrath also suffers from inconstancy but he is no hack. I would be interesting to see what % of other players, pick around the same time of these guys, have done so far. Perhaps that’s one for Jarusa.

Now why is it that when a recruiter picks a supposed dud he is himself a dud but when he picks some good players after pick 50 he is ‘lucky’. I’ve never been able to work that out.

Back to Livo, Wiggo, Sporn, Davies and Prender.

Each year Burgatron compiles his phantom draft for the AFL. He arrives at his selections by ringing around all the AFL recruiters, TAC gurus (Guys like Kevin Sheahan and Co) and Player managers. So in other words the end result is based on the knowledge of people who supposedly know what they are talking about across a wide section of the recruiting spectrum.

Here’s how Burgatron went in the past……

2000 – Livo he picked to go at 4 to Carlton and that's where he went. Everyone I have spoken to about Livo have said there was no doubt he was the best Tall going around after Reiwoldt and Koschitzke. That pick was a solid choice at the time.

2000 – Sporn taken at 11. Burgatron had him at 27 to Essendon*. Possibly he went early but atleast he was still rated top 30 and is said by other recruiters to have been a solid prospect.

2000- Wiggo taken at 15. Burgatron had him at 10 going to the Bulldogs. A top 10 pick suggest that perhaps he had some real potential

2001 – Davies at 39. Burgatron had him at 33 to Richmond so the selection was possibly about right based on Davies progress.

Prender was drafted at 58, went back to the rookie list and then back on the main list. I would have said that Prender was a solid performer for us in 2004. He played the ruckrover role very well and certainly put in each week. He is obviously no world beater but at pick 58 he has atleast been a great clubman. I wouldn’t keep him but you can’t fault his endeavor.

So in hindsight it is easy to say these players should never have been selected. In reality the picks were about right at the time although Sporn may have been taken abit high.

So you suggest that over the past 4-5 years we have drafted poorly. In terms of getting players from other clubs yes we have. In terms of kids, we haven’t been to bad.

In 2000 the choices were solid but the players have since stalled.
In 2001 the Davies pick was solid at the time and place. We also got Waite that year.
In 2002 we got Simpson and Fisher with what was left plus Thornton off our rookie list.
In 2003 we were still stymied but got Walker.
In 2004 we still hold our breath but many were ready to pounce on Russell so pick 9 was about right. Hartlet showed solid U16 and U18 form playing for Sth Aust.

No doubt we should have done better but 2002 and 2003 drafts crippled us. That is obvious when you look out our list now. Just on that fact. Isn’t it interesting that virtually every recruiter in 2002 had Goddard and Wells as the two standouts. Now most are 2nd guessing the pick of Goddard and Wells runs hot and cold. Funny that.

Just looking at the 2002 draft shows how tough it is to project a player from then till now. Not many of the top 40 are currently household names or even likely to be. Many are long gone.

In the end you are right. The players should be performing better but they aren’t. That is a fact. What is not necessary a fact is that they shouldn’t have been drafted in the 1st place.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

So In your humble opinion 'none are worthy' and Wayne Hughes should stand infront of the mirror at home and practise saying the word 'PASS' in a loud clear voice.

If he did that many 'loyal' supporters wouldn't have anything to criticise this time next year. Hardly seems fair to them all does it. What would Keogh and Verbs have to talk about.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Well if it's humour you are after Yoda, then why don't you put your nuts on the line and tell me ?? You're the avid TAC games watcher, you spend hours compiling information about all of the players. Why don't you give us your expert opinion instead of me plucking it out of my arse ?? You've got the formguide, the pages & pages of notes you have made on every player who has done anything anywhere ??

Go on, dazzle us with an informed opinion after all of this indepth research ??

Well I would but I'd be concerned my thoughts may end up as your thoughts somewhere down the line.

Just to make it all fair you go first seeing as I asked you so nicely a few posts back.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

You'll be tearing whatever hair you have out trying to find a single post over three forums where I have criticised a player, coach or administration member cazzesman.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Must be just your aura

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

A curious assumption.

I am evil, and a right royal bastard, but I refuse to participate in any player bagging, coach bagging or administration bagging. Never have, and never intend to.

I look upon footy as a delight. Following Carlton as a delight. Why would I want to turn something I delight in into something negative?

In this thread, it's my opinion the players feel little pressure from supporters' expectations. I could be wrong.

Touche!

Always interested in the Sheiks hindsite method of recruitment!

Sheik,your list failed to mention some of the more enlightened pick-ups at the back-end...i.e Carazzo,Fisher,Simpson and Bentick..

Perhaps your omission might have something to do with the fact that you had them in the "get rid of them" category lin the past?

I know why you won't, or maybe that should be can't. Be great if you could give your informed & first-hand views on some of the players in this years draft though.

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

Cazzasman I won't quote the whole post because it's k'n huge but I will say this ; It's the best post I have ever read. Just quality stuff.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger

Never let the facts get in the way of your story 7Dribble, but just to enlighten others, here's the original post that you so conveniently are referring to :



So I wanted to get rid of Fisher & Bentick did I ??

I also stated that Carrazzo & Simpson needed to take the opportunity when it comes otherwise they may be casualties too.

But hey, you put whatever spin you want on it.

I did alter the list every couple of weeks depending on the fortunes of the team and the players individually. The axe was being called for more heavily after a couple of thumpings.

Sorry if it bugs you but we actually enjoyed the discussions regardless of whether I was wrong or right. The thread went for 22 pages so it just shows that everyone has an opinion on the topic and it created some robust debate which the last time I looked was what these types of forums were all about.

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

I have the utmost faith in Wayne Hughes, he is a quantum leap forward from Shane O'Sullivan who has a lot to answer for in regards to our current problems.

As for the 'none of them' comment, it was a throwaway line because it's a far safer and more accurate answer than trying to actually get right the names of the players who will rack up 100 games. And to be honest, I couldn't give a rat's clack about which ones do elsewhere, I'm only interested in the three players we snaffle with picks 1, 4 & 20. I am praying that they turn out to be 200 game players because right now we need longevity from our next round of draftees, not mis-hits !!

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GROUND ZERO + DRAFTING YOUTH = SUSTAINED SUCCESS

these forums are about egos

or they were until mrs caz told us to leave them at the door

no mines cold and shivery and tommi's parked his bloody ego beside it!

as for players

shit we hate players

then we don't

oe we don't ever

or we do always

I thought simmo was never going to make it

thought frenchy was a dud

so what?

Sunrise sunset

seasons come and go

I reckon bloody Fisher's a ripper got that one right from his first crack at it in a training drill i saw that summer.

so what?

I think its bring your egos

but leave the tape measures


mine's bigger anyway

'xept for tommi's

see there are always compensations

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Trouble is Sheik,you offer one quote in a myriad of posts.Having noted you're distasteful "give 'em the axe" awards and countless recruiting solutions over the years,it is apparent that the old adage applies..I.E say enough things and you will get one right eventually!

As for your attitude and language on this forum might i suggest you follow the guidelines set down by you're alter ego BBB over at the CSC. ?