One of the most sensible summations of the situation I've read on this site, well done.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Pagan was dealt a bad deal...crap list, no draft picks and players on the list who were not willing to change.....he tried the wild card players like Angwin, Norman and then the retred path..none of whic has worked...we have now gone back to rebuilding with youth and it will pay dividends down the track....not sure if Pagan will see the end result but you cant knock the guy for trying things ..rather be in his hands than Laidley or Malthouse...cant figure out what Laidley is doing and Malthouse has gone the way of David Parkin and appears to have lost the plot....
We are on the way up and as Malcom Blight said enjoy the ride....or something along those lines....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Agreed.

PS Not sure what Mark Harvey has to done to earn this "wonder coach in waiting" tag but his analysis of players, tactics and games are very rarely worth listening to. If he is Freo's coaching messiah, god help them.

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In WADA we trust

I'm used to following a club that thought it was born to rule on the basis of a golden era and failed to see that the landscape had changed and was not prepared to take its medicine and adapt to changed circumstances.

You are living in fantasy land if you think anyone could've engineered a Blues revival from the position you were in in 2002 to now. It's a long hard road and you have just set out on it.

I say get used to it.

Fair enough overview of our situtation......Melbourne are further along the road but hows the coach travelling?. Also are very dependent on players like Nietz , Yze..do they have enough class to take the next step....Sylvia and Mclean dont appear in the Judd/Ball/Hodge class.....
Nathan Jones = Brent Moloney but still isnt that class player you need...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

EB,

That's really the subject for another thread, as you might expect I could go on ...

but in summary:

1. You are exactly correct, like Geelong we lack star quality to win the flag, we hope that Sylvia or McLean can become stars but I agree they look behind Cooney and Griffen let alone Judd and Ball. It's not impossible that Johnstone or Bruce graduate to star quality, their direction is correct.

2. Neitz, Yze and White (just like Lyon, Viney and Stynes before them)cannot carry us to a flag, that is proven, they may be components but they will not be the prime movers.

3. Flags require a measure of luck, we may be able to do "a Sydney" if all the cards fell right. All the current contenders have flaws.

4. Like Pagan, Daniher will complete his current contract at the end of 2007 with a much better list that he started with in 1998 and a better list than he has now. That is sufficient for me to approve his chance at glory. We haven't won a flag in 42 years, it is worth persevering with this course a while longer. We are making the correct moves - in the absence of a super-star, Jones is exactly what we need - hard inside ball-magnet.

Sydney I am interested in your views of what decisions would have turned the club around in 24 hours. Also, what will Harvey do to Freo that will make them better? Finally, you must hold Harvey in high regard, is that because he was the understudy to a stale and past it coach?

Sydney Blue, you make it sound like Denis isn't allowed to have a grand plan? My thoughts are that he is the coach, a proven, successful coach & if there are players within the team that do not or will not listen to what he has to say then they shouldn't be part of that team. When you look at the players he got rid of (namely Beaumont, Allan & Murphy), they have all ended their careers on extremely low notes with their new clubs so isn't it a good thing that Pagan got rid of them when he did to get some earlier picks & a masive change in attitude? I'll use Beaumont, Allan & Murph again as an example but if they do not want to have a commitment to improve & in turn succeed, why should they be part of our team as to be successful you need to be commited to do whatever it takes to reach that goal?

I am all for Pagan recruiting 'coachable' players. As mentioned above, he already has the proven track record so wouldn't that be the first step to building a successful team? Having young, skillful kids who want to play AFL football with a successful team would listen & commit themselves to Pagan to ensure that goal was reached.

But, BGD,your reasoning doesn't allow SydneyBlue to go on about Pagan and how old and washed up he is, and make all sorts of justifications which supposedly back up his dislike of one of the best coaches in the business at the moment.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Oh, oops, sorry KK. Thread over!

Pagan =inflexible ,but for some of the list they need it because they are soft in the mind.

Interesting that Melbourne and its lack of premiership success has reared its ugly head yet again. Whilst the win against the bullies was magnificient, the celebrations were over the top.They barely won the next week against an up and down bombers lineup and were shit and I mean shit against Geelong.Melbourne haven't had 3 or 4 crap years in a row which has been to its disadvantage overall with top players of a similar age not coming through with higher draft picks over consecutive years, but like Geelong the culture of the place must change if its to taste the prize cherrie.

Spot on old55.

SB, I'm interested in your reply to jbee's questions re:
1. Decisions needed to be made to turn the club around in 24hrs
2. Why Harvey will be a wonder coach when he is the understudy of Sheedy, whom you said was a stale, old coach

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

And what's more, hasn't had the balls to go it alone yet either.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

That's right KK. I can't work out why SB would say that? Maybe he's young with fresh ideas?

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

Sporting clubs of all kinds are littered with clubs fortunes turning around with the removal of the coach. A few good examples are as follows

Adelaide 2005
Sydney turn around since the removal of eade
Socceroos and the removal of Farina
Carlton 1978 once the got rid of Stewart
West Tigers appointment of Tim Sheens
North Queensland Cowboys
The removal of Stewart and Atherton in English cricket and the appointment of Vaughan

The list can go on and on and on where coaching appoints and decisions made have turned clubs fortunes around in 24 hrs.

the great man DP has said it himself football and sport for that matter is 90% above the shoulders Pagan has lost the art of getting through.

90% of all players at this level have the same or similar ability its just extracting that ability that counts . Look at richmond this year they were flying - they were up and looked unbeatable = they smashed us. They lost Brown - they lost confidence they then lost momentum and started to lose . Its all in the head they still had the same ability.. Carlton is currently on the nose - the President tells them they suck = the coach has no answers and often puts them down = players who have been at the club a long time no longer want to be there .

The appointment of Pagan has had the opposite effect our side although finishing last in 2002 they are now more un competitive than they were then. People are now suggesting that Pagan planned to finish last to gain access to draft pick. If a coach of a football side has not got his sites set on the big one every year he shouldn't be in the job. You should enter every season hoping you are going to win it. If you set your target low as Pagan has done you will finish low.

It will be very interesting to see what the injection of young blood does and wether Pagan will play them. If he leaves them in the Bullants and plays sporn - Bannister- Prendagast and co the high that the club is currently on will be lost. Watch this space


Fremantle has the talent base to win the flag. The Afl has changed the rules to suit their style of play. Connolly has been holding them back and hindering the AFL plan to get them a flag. Harvey has been sent there to get them over the line and put a rocket up the coach. It might not be 2006 but 2007 the flag is theirs for keeps and The AFL will do anything than can to assist them.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Personally this is the only bit of what you're saying which makes any sense, and even then only in a limited sense.

What you omitted was: "Pagan has lost the art of getting through to some players."

The players that Pagan hastened the removal of from Carlton were players who, conversely, refused to be got through to. They were in their comfort zone, and felt that they'd put in in their glory year/s and now the club owed them, not the other way round, and no amount of talking, coaxing, goading, cajoling etc made any difference to their input into the club, on or off the field.

Milton said it best: "There are none so blind as those who will not see"

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Anyhow,all this stuff about blokes with the right attitude.
All i gotta say,is he we are gunna recruit on attitude,then we are flower!!!!!!!
Jesus bloody christ,are you guys for real.Wiggo,Prenda,Livo,not to mention the recently departed Clarke.All are bloody exemplary in character,attitude,the whole bloody lot.It dont count for jack shit if you dont know how to find the footy.
To that Army dude it sounds great.But,its a footy side we want,not a boy scout brigade.
Sooner we chase the very best footballers available as our number 1 priority the better off we will be.Too much sermonizing by some of you guys.Too much airy,fairy mumbo jumbo.I'd take a brilliant wildcard before an honest plodder anyday.If the coach is any good,he will harness that rare talent.Thats what Pagan is paid the mega bucks for isnt he ?

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All my dangerous friends

Then why couldn't Denis harness Laurie Angwing, the biggest wild card of them all?

Some say he was eveen a Draw 8!

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

So SB, if I tell you that Richmond changed coaches more frequently than Italy changed Governments after Hafey, on your analysis that would mean that they kept on getting a shot in the arm which would keep them at the top. Wait a minute - weren't they a rabble while Carlton prospered with relative stability in its coaching. Not to mention North Melbourne having a prosperous decade under 1 coach recently.

You give the example of Carlton in 1978 - are you really comparing a flake like Stewart with Pagan who has been a gritty and reliable coach for yonks? Are you comparing the state of our list in 2002 with the state of our list in 1978? Do you want us to detail the legendary players who were at Jezza's disposal when he took over?

One of your examples is Eade being removed from Sydney. Yet I thought that he was one of the options that we should have explored instead of Pagan. And some might say that Eade has done pretty well at WB anyway, which suggests he wasn't a dud coach.

One flaw in the logic regarding Eade at Sydney - he had a lengthy term there and perhaps he had exceeded his use-by date at the club. Hardly a criticism that you could level at Pagan.

And the other bloke who is referred to as another option we should have explored is Wallace - the very bloke who was going to take over from Eade although Sydney way well be happy he didn't. And Eade has taken over Wallace's old list and maybe has done better than he could have.

Please don't compare Pagan to Ayres. Or Rohde. Or Frawley. Or Farina.

But I take it from your examples of the value of replacing underperforming and inexperienced coaches with experienced and successful coaches means that you were in favour of replacing Brittain with Pagan?

And why is Clarkson so admired for getting rid of club veterans and recruiting youth, and yet Pagan is condemned for failing to keep his club veterans happy and at the club?

Hmmph This subject is one of many really really debatable ones....it is kinda neither here nor there.

I will say though....if you look at a players career and when they start to peak, mature and play decent consistent footy it is usually when they are 23-24? So it makes me think that 3 yrs is shit all in footy.

When you start to discuss our situation and really take into account the state we were in. It starts to lean towards reasons other than the coach.

Carlton were behind, they basically stuck their middle fingers up at the new system and said we are better than you and we will continue to poach players and top up our list while all you bastards use the drafting system that was made available to you. We were dismissing something that the rest of the league was taking advantage of. You can't underestimate the effect that it had on us.

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The problem will be made. for the solution to be sold, to your face before your eyes, tolerance is now the new danger