its all perspective stuff. and faith, you just gotta have faith.

The real question is where do you think our list was SB in 2002? Did you think it was fine and dandy, no need to worry, just carry on regardless? Do you think the draft penalties meant nothing, hurt not at all?

if you do think the lkist was poor and the penalties would hurt then is it not fair to give DP those two years off? And in giving him those two years off (because we couldn't draft anything except AW and then third round and beyond) don't you think missing out on 3 top players and the second round players meant we slipped even further backwards and so Denis must be allowed time to rebuild from that point. So last year, this year and next we are in the rebuilding phase?

Do you seriously not think the game has changed? That drafts mean you cannot change radically and without access to the draft you can do little?

And most important of all, is it not possible that in order to proceed forward we needed to hurt the short term for long term gain? By this i do not mean playing for draft picks.

See its perspective because obviously SB your answers will be different to mine and you may even ask totally different questions.

And we'll never be able to alter each other's view. Even if we do fail in this rebuild, even oif DP never takes us higher than say 8th, still I will not blame him, but rather accept the penalties easily the worst ever handed out have handed us our worst ever poeriod as a club.

That quote of DP's about mind, should have a proviso, all things equal it is in the head, but for two years all things were not equal for this club. For two years things were decidedly unequal.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Cue Massive and The Game AKA Madblueboy

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

i think what SB is trying to say is he likes the StKilda and Richmond model.. where you dont like the coach??? you strike and get rid of him.. then u win the next 2 but go back to normal.. you then strike.. change your coach and win another two.

And Mickster.. of course we need the right attitude because we dont have a skill level... thats what we have to work on... its called rebuilding.. with blokes that do the correct things until we can find the players who do the correct thing and have better skills.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

No synbad I dont think you should change coaches on a whim - Just this one. He has brought nothing to this club only a change of Culture . We have gone from a winning Culture to a losing culture . I'd have Parkin back tommorrow in a flash. A club on its knees financially and we paying 2.4 mill for this garbage. Synbad I 'd have more faith in you re-building this team than him

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

You've been asked several times SB to tell us all HOW you would have turned this club around in "24 hours".

What would you have done differently? You've given us a few examples of instances through the years, but you've yet to tell us how it should have been done at Carlton.

Dont you read = Piss Pagan off

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Who?:?

do you think the penalties had any effect?

Or is our demise due to DP?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

You're asked for details and that is the best you can come up with?????
Great plan you have there. Piss Pagan off and the place will turn around in 24 hours.

No doubt about it SB, you've got my vote

Even Grant Thomas couldn't have got us into the finals with the list of talent we have had over the past 4 years.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Look i dont doubt i can do a ripper job rebuilding the club but i spoke to an ex North player during the carnival (yes i have spoken to one too) and he said the problem is theyre "softcocks"... now this guy is a champion footballer.. and i dare suggest he has the types of qualities we miss in our team.

The problem with us is we have not rebuilt.. and we are stuck with players that had it all dont for them.. (i mean leadership.. heavy lifting etc)when those blokes retired over the last 5 years we got stuck with the sponges...
You cant be serious and say Pagan actually had a list to work with can you???

The mentality of the club has failed us in this new era...
The admin... the players and even the supporters who went/ go along with all the rubbish.
Pagan isnt perfect... but hes having to do it from a long way back....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I don't know about Grant Thomas Agro, but I'm sure Mark Harvey would have

It's a strange thing, the penalties. I have often read on these internet fanatic soundboards, that if we had got Goddard and Wells we wouldn't have got Walker.

So if we got Goddard and Wells and not Walker, but maybe Russell we definitely wouldn't have got Murphy and Kennedy?

And where would we be now...better? worse?

Who knows really?

Not me.

Pagan had a shit list .. the list is alot better.. but so is everybody else.
Were playing catch up football.
Were coming from a long long way back...

We need all hand on deck.. we have too many who have their hands painted on...

Well thats changing but it should have changed some more.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

We had great list and we dominated, how it was put together is a little murky but no worst than others.
We had an arrogant boss that could not see the writing was on the wall and the rebuilding & renewing was neglected badly , many areas ignored after all the champions could carry us.
Then came AFL penalties which devastated and humbled us.
Things are changing . exciting times are ahead we will be great again the master is rebuilding t have no doubt. just give the kids few more years.
Up the Mighty Blues
Ciao

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Go Blue Boys

not just Wells and Goddard, but everything else as well, the second rounders, the leverage, the lure to other players etc.

what we lost was two years ability to rebuild.

Yes we have done fantastic this year (I think) but really before last year's draft we tread water for two years - all other clubs went forward.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

It cost us 2 years .. plus wasting time and effort as well as money on Karl and Laurie.
So the 4/5 years rebuilding becomes 6/7 and the only senior players older...(not that they were the ideal senior group)....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Water we were forced to tread DannyBoy let’s not underestimate Demitrispew’s intentions.
He hit us hard and low. The Blues were unable to move for
few years he made sure of that.
Finally we have made the changes and gathered some exciting talent with the right attitude.
The master will return us to glory let’s give him time.
ciao

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Go Blue Boys

Its those two years and their ripples effect (as Synners points out) on age, on confidence, on development and so forth, that we cannot measure. Some of us think this is the major problem with the past few years, others don't. That's football.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Forget the draft penalties lets talk about what Pagan has brought to the club. Not what he did at North in the nineties what he has done since he has been at Carlton all I see is 18.5/66 winning record. When you put this up against Brittain who bacicaly took over in 2000 his was 33/66 . Britain took us to the spoon and was sacked. Pagan takes us there and he is building for the future.

Name Pagans Acheivements since he has been at Carlton and what has he acheived by delisting and getting rid of over 6+ 100+game players

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws