Paul Hudson

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18078

Unfortunately I think its a copout.
The number of assistants isnt the problem, its a quality issue, not quantity.
The board wanted to restructure at the end of the season.
The opportunity was perfect to get some fresh innovative ideas into the place.
Trout should have been retired and replaced by new ideas IMHO.
Denis pleaded for the status quo to remain.

Someone like Hudson would have come for next to nothing. He wants an opportunity and the chance to increase his skills.
He wouldnt have cost anymore than Elshaugh.
Money had nothing to do with it, the courage to take a risk was the issue.
Just my opinion.

Drewgirl · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:57 pm **Posts:** 4779

In relation to the question of money, I heard that money was an issue with hiring more coaches.

Was also speaking to a woman working in the archives dept, and they physically cut out all the Carlton articles from all the newspapers they can find, then they have to put them in plastic sleeves in folders. They cannot even afford to buy a scanner which would make life easier.

I couldn't believe such a thing.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Dec 08, 2005 9:10 pm

Fevola wrote:

In relation to the question of money, I heard that money was an issue with hiring more coaches.

Was also speaking to a woman working in the archives dept, and they physically cut out all the Carlton articles from all the newspapers they can find, then they have to put them in plastic sleeves in folders. They cannot even afford to buy a scanner which would make life easier.

I couldn't believe such a thing.

Ill give them my old one...

kennyhunter · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:35 pm **Posts:** 2436

With you there, BV.

Denis ain't gunna give up his kingdom lightly ...

Mini-me should have been the first to get the flick if the "review" was done properly.

No sources. Just an opinion, too. :-D

camel · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:11 am

Heavs wrote:

Dr.SHERRIN wrote:

well Huddo had an affair and seperated from his wife ... etc

Why would you sleep around on Leah - she's is a very tidy piece of work. I 'll give her a shoulder to cry on.

What's the line from some movie or other "show me a good looking woman and I'll find a bloke tired of [erm], talking knitting, with her" I think I've got that quote right.

:mrgreen:

camel · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2005 8:15 am

Blue Vain wrote:

I wouldnt say he's better than TD M2C, he fills a different role.
TD has been fantastic in his hands on work with the players. He challenges them physically, motivates them and is a positive uplifting influence around the club.
He does his best work out on the track.

Hudson on the other hand is more of a tactical student. He is a lateral thinker, challenges contemporary thoughts and would do his best work with structures, gameplans and tactics.

I went to a Football Victoria seminar recently and the CEO of the VCFL talked about the changing roles of coaches and players.
He mentioned Terry Wallace who introduced the practice of players warming up before the game out on the ground.
He also mentioned about Wallace doing media interviews before and after the game.
At the time most of the other coaches scoffed at the idea and branded Wallace a media slut.
Thinking outside the square can be threatening to incumbents.
Now nearly all the other clubs are doing the same thing. :wink:

Having someone on the list who is young, proactive and offering a different perspective is a great bonus.
I know this is a really harsh comment but Elshaugh is Pagans mini me.
He is a clone of DEnis who offers exactly what Denis does with a different voice.
He is there to reinforce to Denis and the players what Denis believes.
Is that ideal? I personally dont think so.
I'd love to see someone like Hudson added to the coaching panel but I cant see it happening.
He needs to go to a club where his creativity is not stifled. Where he can offer advice and thoughts without anybody feeling threatened by his views.
Could that happen at Carlton?

Sorry, to have interrupted with a cheap gag in my previous post â€¦ this one is a cracker from BV, and the discussion around it is great too.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the failure to take the risk is as much at the hands of Denis as it is the board.

Elwood Blues1 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:10 am **Posts:** 4827

Agree that Elshaugh and Libba are baggage at the moment and not really offering us anything new and while I have supported Denis Pagan being retained I dont support him wanting to keep those two.
Re: Paul Hudson...good kick but not my style of player but coaching is a different part of the game and as others have said he would have been cheap and offered something different being more a student of the game and we have nothing to lose and everything to gain by appointing some new fresh thinkers.
Its interesting discussing Elshaugh because he appears a professional assistant rather than wanting to be a senior coach and being tied to Pagan I cant see where he is heading with his own career ..if he cant make advances himself I dont see him being able to help us.
Mark Harvey has finally cut the apron strings with Sheedy and I think Elshaugh needs to do the same ...you have to be able to provide some lateral thinking not just reinforce what Pagan is preaching.
Looking ahead..would another wooden spoon be the end of Denis Pagan at the club?...and Ian Collins?

budzy · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:17 am **Posts:** 8128

Elwood Blues1 wrote:

Looking ahead..would another wooden spoon be the end of Denis Pagan at the club?...and Ian Collins?

Pagan will survive because of his lucrative contract but if Collo is still in the chair if we collect another spoon he'd be doomed.
Libba and Elshaugh would surelybe shown the door as well.

GWS · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2005 12:48 pm

This isn't meant to be a defence of Elshaugh and or Libba but how do we actually know what they're offering to the coaching set-up when 95% of it happens behind closed doors?

How do we know that Elshaugh isn't providing insight into individual players that's consistantly revelatory?

How do we know that Libba isn't providing quality structural systems in order to implement strategies that allow the club as a person to move forward whilst keeping an eye on the past? :-D

As I said I'm not trying to defend these guys, just curious as to how we know they're not offering anything?

Anyone?

PS: Before anyone makes any smart-arse comment about the moving forward sentence - it's a piss-take okay?

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18078

Quite right GWS.
But if they are....................its not working.

Until this year, the past 3 seasons have been groundhog day.
Nothing new at training, nothing inventive, nothing different.
Elshaugh speaks Paganspeak and everyone follows the partyline.

A very wise and experienced football person made a comment to me last week.
He said " To improve, it's not what you do the same that matters, it's what you do differently."
"The definition of foolishness is continuing to do the same thing continuously and expecting a different result"

What have you seen different since 2002?
Have a talk to Elshaugh and see what inspiring thoughts he has on football.
He is Denis. Mark 2.
We need someone who offers new and exciting, not someone to confirm DEnis' philosophies when he has doubts.

budzy · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:17 am **Posts:** 8128

If we win the spoon again next year that means the players aren't developing as should be, therefore there's something broken amongst the coaching/developing ranks, which therefore suggests those coaches who have been there awhile (Libba, Elshaugh) aren't getting results which therefore requires them to be shown the door.
In order to improve you must change.

I would be satisfied with 6 - 8 wins next year from our young improving squad.

GWS · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:35 pm

Blue Vain wrote:

Quite right GWS.
But if they are....................its not working.

Until this year, the past 3 seasons have been groundhog day.
Nothing new at training, nothing inventive, nothing different.
Elshaugh speaks Paganspeak and everyone follows the partyline.

A very wise and experienced football person made a comment to me last week.
He said " To improve, it's not what you do the same that matters, it's what you do differently."
"The definition of foolishness is continuing to do the same thing continuously and expecting a different result"

What have you seen different since 2002?
Have a talk to Elshaugh and see what inspiring thoughts he has on football.
He is Denis. Mark 2.
We need someone who offers new and exciting, not someone to confirm DEnis' philosophies when he has doubts.

I follow all that BV and agree with the need to be trying new things. I also agree that Elshaugh seems to fit pretty closely with Pagan's method (perhaps it's Elshaugh's method?).

The thing is whilst out on the track he's obviously not offering up much new perhaps his value to Denis is more behind the scenes. By this I don't just mean supporting Denis and being a yes man. He may well be that but he may well be giving Denis particular advice for which Denis believes he has a continuing need.

Again, not trying to defend Elshaugh as such just trying to get a sense of why Denis rates him so highly. I don't think people like Denis get to the level he's at by surrounding themselves solely with yes men. I guess what I'm asking is "What is it that Elshaugh's doing that Pagan rates?"

Maybe this all comes back to where we discussed this previously. I still think the coach needs to have the major say in selecting his assistants. He's the only person who can really know what it is that they're offering him and it's his job on the line if they're not offering him enough. Imposing others upon him is a recipe for disaster I reckon.

Perhaps the path through the middle is to appoint additional assistants with differing views (such as Hudson) whilst retaining Elshaugh etc whilst Denis still believes they offer what he needs.

It's obviously healthy to have dissenting opinions on the coaching panel but if all 4, 5 6 or however many coaches the team may have hold radically different views we're not going to get anywhere either.

I don't know what the answer is but I'm convinced we're analysing the situation with about 5% of the neccessary information so how the @#$%&! could I? :lol:

GWS · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:37 pm

budzy wrote:

I would be satisfied with 6 - 8 wins next year from our young improving squad.

I'd actually prefer 22 one point losses.

Seriously. :-D

That way it's quite clear we're in the ball park rather than picking off the occasional side on a bad day and falling apart the rest of the time.

Plus we'd get the #1 pick... :lol:

budzy · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 11:17 am **Posts:** 8128

GWS wrote:

budzy wrote:

I would be satisfied with 6 - 8 wins next year from our young improving squad.

I'd actually prefer 22 one point losses.

Seriously. :-D

That way it's quite clear we're in the ball park rather than picking off the occasional side on a bad day and falling apart the rest of the time.

Plus we'd get the #1 pick... :lol:

22 losses and you reckon we're in the ball park!?!? :shock:

I question your sanity GWS :lol:

GWS · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:42 pm

budzy wrote:

GWS wrote:

budzy wrote:

I would be satisfied with 6 - 8 wins next year from our young improving squad.

I'd actually prefer 22 one point losses.

Seriously. :-D

That way it's quite clear we're in the ball park rather than picking off the occasional side on a bad day and falling apart the rest of the time.

Plus we'd get the #1 pick... :lol:

22 losses and you reckon we're in the ball park!?!? :shock:

I question your sanity GWS :lol:

Yep - by one point in all of them.

That's not competitive?

GWS · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:43 pm

I might be a little ill by the end of the season though...

Synbad · **Posted:** Fri Dec 09, 2005 1:54 pm

Wed be foolish to think were not hot favourites for another wooden spoon.. but that does not mean were not improving our list.
All it means is were miles behind the pack.. we have few leaders.. we dont have much experience.. we dont have the mature bodies ... and the ones we do have are pretty average compared to everyone elses.
Were right down the bottom with Hawthorn, Richmond, Essendon* and Collingwood.
Wed shave them for bottom spot.
This will continue for another year or two.. but we will emerge.
What we need to do is add more enjoyment to the group, more development and a sense of togetherness through this dark period.
We need our kids all sticking together so when the sun comes up they are ready.

The most important thing for this club right now is not a ladder position.. but grooming for the future.
Grooming leaders, grooming a team of kids that want to play for this club and when theyre ready they will attack the jugular.. not just go through the motions ....

Paul Hudson

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