I stand by it, I've never seen an AFL player panic like Livo when he gets the ball. Glad I'm not so bored that I would have to nitpick through posters history.

Not bored when pointing out your past pearlers.

Athorn was a poorer player than David Clarke.

Athorn played in a Grand Final. Clarke couldn't get a game in one of the worst sides in history. Why bring this up in this thread? Why deliberately try to ruin a footy discussion here?

Not ruining anything since it's a thread about C graders, but if there I was to ever class a player as a Z grader it would be Mark Athorn.

I still have nightmares when I think about him chasing Long, getting brushed aside too easily and ending up biting Long's dust.

Long was dancing around the whole side that day and produced the most electrifying performance I've ever seen that day.
You think Livo stops him?

Livingston does a better job playing for a bottom side than a guy who played with a group that went onto win 20 games.

It would be interesting to see how Livo would go if had teammates of the calibre of Sexton, Dean, McKay, Christou and SOS.

re: Livo..I think he gets support on this forum because if you meet him he comes across as a nice young fella. I only spoke to him once at a family day but he seems very mature and a thinking type of bloke and he gives you hope he can get some of that maturity into his play on the field .
I agree his results have not been great but he has copped some difficult opponents and I want to see have another year before I give him away...
Kids of his size do develop late and I dont want to hand another club a FB without trying everything to make him a player...

re: Davies...good to read he is training well but I see him in competition with players like Blackwell, Carrazzo and now has Jess Smith and Ryan Jackson breathing down his neck as rookies.....I think he will struggle to maintain a senior spot.....you could try him in a backpocket...nothing to lose...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

To further the idea we have to rate the players. To let me do this I will pretend that I am Mike Sheahan and get paid lots of money for my musings. Plus my list will be full of errors and inconsistencies for you all to debate until you realise that I am a tosser:

A Grade: Kouta, Stevens, Lappin, Thornton
B Grade: Waite, Whitnall, French, Fisher, Teague, Fevola, Scotland, Houlihan,
C Grade: Walker, Simpson, Bentick, Saddinton, McLaren, Betts, McGrath,
D Grade: Livingston, Davies, Longmuir, Chambers, DeLuca, Bryan, Prendergast, Bannister, Wiggins, Sporn,
Too young to rate: Russell, Murphy, Kennedy, Blackwell, Setanta, Bower, Hartlett, Raso, Edwards, Batson,Smith, Zakkkie, Jackson, Flint

Gradings on performance so far, not on where picked up in the draft. A are stars, B are those almost always first picked if fit, C are those generally picked if fit and D are those who dont command a spot even if fit.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

I reckon you're rating Livo of 2003 with that comment. I reckon his 2005 was much better and he even ran off his man a couple of times. A couple of times aint enough but he started to do it even though our defence was shot for large tracts of the season.

The whole point of a full back normally isnt to zone off and not play 1 on 1 like Fletcher has become. Bomber fans think he's great but he is becoming the new Cloke. The whole point is to beat their man, hold them goalless or kick 1 or 2 or I dont know maybe 3 for the good guys. Livo cant do this to the big guys but he can to the second tier forwards. Livo aint the answer as a big full back on the best of them but hes not crap anymore.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

See, i think Fletcher was important to Essendon* in his heyday (yearrs ago) because he would zone off but create more opportunities for them than his immediate player had.

Bower is a similar type.
He isnt your man on man type but more a Jonathon Hay.. rebounding defender.


PS Athorn i dont agree that Kouta is an A grader.. he may be an A grader for us but he isnt an A grader anymore.
We only have two and then only when theyre on song... Stevens and Fevola... both really B plus players at the moment....

No A graders.

The A graders will come from the next batch coming through...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Synbad,
Lets hope he aint a headcase like him

You could be right Synbad, but as I said it was on performance and in my mind I was thinking about our team, not comparing to others. Kouta did win the best & fairest after all, so he should be at the top of our list on perforamnce, disregarding age and salary. Which you have to if you're renking players.

Anyways the intent was to work out who were our C and D graders. Some are young and coming through, others are trudgers and then there's those in the middle.

I would like to think that Davies will come through but how long have we been waiting?

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

Well he wouldn't get a go would he?

Manton got a go.. and believe me when i say that he looked more lost than Livo when he was slotted into that defense.
But when you have guys like those guys around you they cover for you, settle you down, you learn from them.

Livo came to a club stripped of all that.
He came into a club that was most unlike Carlton.

He would have made that side... just as Manton did.
Those blokes made you good.
We won premierships with Howell and gez there was another like Howell in one of those early 80s premierships... was it Aitken???
Dont tell me those guys were better than Livo....

Our 87 premiership side doesnt look much on paper..(depth wise) but shesh was it a good side or what???Won a premiership!! Cant do better than winning one of those....

There are roles for the Livos is this world.. but we need the structures right!!!

Theyre not frontliners.. we need frontliners!!!

Our main players arent frontliners.. thats our problem.
Kouta is unaccountable...
Lance cant play KP.
Stevens needs to show it.
Fev goes missing...

Thats why for me i want the good picks.. taht can hopefully translate into good kids to go with the Betts and the Walkers and the Waites and Fishers...

And from ALL those kids we will find some frontliners.. the kind of frontliners that will turn your C grade players into B grade players.. and your B grade players into B+ grade players.. and the A graders that need a spur to actually maintain A grade status.. to make it and maintain it!!!


The current batch cant go it.. we have to wait for the kids to surge forward and as they do they will bring more in with them....

....as long as they dont pick up bad habits!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Defence wise Manto and Livo would be on par with each other. When in possession of the ball Manton was cool under pressure, Livo falls to pieces. Maybe it is because he doesn't have SOS and Macca next to him, I don't know. What I do know though is they are not coming back and he better get used to it or this will be his last year.

Yes but if you remember Manton before the finals in 95 he was terrible.... he had been dropped but came back.

I reckon if Livo knows he has a spot in the side he will do ok.. or i hope so anyway...!!

Like Elwood says if you meet him you want him to do well.. hes just that type of bloke.
actually most of our youngsters have that quality.

Its good i reckon!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Yeah you may be right he does seem to be playing scared. Its like he dreads the ball to come to him.

I actually didn't think much of Manton in 95, but the following year he was very good.

Gees I've heard it all now Synbad.

First you say that Livo was recruited as a CHF, I wonder why didn't he get a run there?? Because Lance was far too good in that spot.

Livo better than Manton?? You are kidding me? At least Manton didn't shit his pants every time the ball came down and had some idea of how to read whether the ball was going to be at 40 metres or 20 when it came down. Livo shows the same abillity to read the flight of the ball as our beloved Corey in those ruck contests when he'd either run under the ball or over the ball or around it.

I reckon you're just in this for a laugh.

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Forgotten, but not gone

Livo played most of his TAC football at CHF, and was touted by most recruiters as the best Key Position Player available in that draft after Reiwoldt and Kositchke.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

As most have said we dont have consistant A graders.

We have potential A graders eg Bentick, Waite, Fisher, Thornton etc
We have potentail B graders eg Wiggins, Davies, Sporn

However we dont have an A grader who dominates each week.

- Kouta will get 30 possies then only 5 in the next games because hes tagged
- Thornton still has a lot to learn before he becomes a fearful defender against opposition clubs.
- Fev looks dissinterested most of the time because of a lack of quality ball.
- Stevens skill wise is an A grader but how many times does he really hurt the opposition...twice a year

If we classify these people as A graders they need to dominate each week rather than once a month

Thats the problem having below par performances far too often. They arent A graders now but they have the potential to be bar Kouta because he was the A grader of the copmp a few years back!

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"Dont count the games, make the games count"