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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:23 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Sydney Blue wrote:
kouta - campo - whitnal - and braddles got the ball - they were continually in our top 5-10 players - if the rest of our players performed like them we would be in this situation .

In the top 5 of OUR team. Not top 5 in the AFL. Big difference. We've got a small bunch of players who were once prodigies, stars, etc, but are past their prime.
How well do you think any team you coach would do with one 20 year old, and the rest made up of the under 15s. That's effectively what Pagan's had to do since 03.
He's busting a gut to try and pull our club up by its very bootstraps, is it too much to expect others to do the same, which includes either workload or monetary considerations?

Quote:
Elliott paid them that money because thats what others were offering for them

No.....That's what Dave Allison said others were offering for them. Again, big difference. The club got bent over and reamed by leeches like Allison. The players I can understand asking for whatever they can get, because they have to keep one eye on the future - after all their career may be over next weekend (See Spriggs).

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:24 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Think about what you just wrote down Danny - you are defending a bloke for bagging a games record holder and an out standing champion of our club. And defending a coach who only culture change he has brought to the club is a losing culture and a one the breeds supporters that criticise our past champions.Because they dont like his methods or playing style. (which by judging from all training reports he is the process of changing)

Love and defend the club Danny by all means but be mindfull of the results we have been having

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:39 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Sydney Blue wrote:
Think about what you just wrote down Danny - you are defending a bloke for bagging a games record holder and an out standing champion of our club. And defending a coach who only culture change he has brought to the club is a losing culture and a one the breeds supporters that criticise our past champions.Because they dont like his methods or playing style. (which by judging from all training reports he is the process of changing)

Love and defend the club Danny by all means but be mindfull of the results we have been having


Have you ever had a post that isn't a thinly-veiled stab at Pagan?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:39 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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Sydney Blue wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Synbad it is a different game now - players cant choose where they want to go - there is a lot more money available and its now a full time job.

Cant blame them for hanging out for what they can get - Our coach has led the way at screwing the club for everything he can get and not performing so you cant expect the players to do anything different .

Its the way of the world I sorry and it aint gunner change anytime soon.


Oh if thats the case whats your beef with what Pagan is on???
And we offered Kosi more .. he stayed for less.
We offered Luke Power more.. he stayed for less.
We offered Robert Harvey more.. he has stayed for less.
Greg Healey??>less
Justin Leppitch???>less.
Brent Harvey???>Less
Nathan Burke???>less

As a matter of fact the only players that were going to jump ship ftrom their clubs, for MORE MONEY, last year belonged to us and they were all in the leadership group....

We have paid over the odds and received less per $ from senior players , ore than any other club.

I used to think our players played for us because they loved the club.... not because we had to pay MORE!!!...

Whats happened over the last decade is that because we looked after our own better than any other club.. 'our own' ended up thinking we should have to wipe their arses for them... pay them above market value.. pay for their taxes even....
How funny is that???

Players spitting the dummy at the club because they BELIEVE the club is responsible for their taxation affairs....

We had a long line of players contracting one Dave Allison to manage their financial affairs.. to the absolute detriment of this football club.
The least the idiot could have done is lodged 'Dog' Browns paperwork to the AFL so it doesnt implicate us on his greedy deals.

Jack Elliot.. the man who couldnt stand seeing Carlton players leave to other clubs and with the motto "We never rebuild at carlton " was cannon fodder for these blokes..

They all knew it!!!... the arse end of this lot of players and mentality just hated that they missed out on the cream when it came to their time.....

Doull... a newsagency in Jacana...

Some of these blokes made million dllar businesses out of this club.

And whilst i believe all players should get out of footy with more than just a newsagency in Jacana...i dont believe they have to drink the well dry...
Whats wrong with them???

Cant they make money with a very good income for themselves after footy??
they act as if they need the very last 1$ coin they can scrounge from the club or they will be out on the streets.

Its still hurting us....!!!

Im sure it will change when those players bugger off before they contaminate the kids.


My Beef with Pagan is the results he is acheiving -If he was performing I couldn't give a shit if we paid him 10 million. But his results are crap. Your bitch with the players is one of envy. You cant stand to see people acheive and be rewarded for their efforts you would rather see a battling prendagast or a struggling Wigans bust their gut but show little. I dont mind see our best players getting paid good money as they are our best .

You need to forget about the money and go and watch a game and look at who gets the ball - not at who is trying to get the ball. you keep trying to tell us they are soft cheap possessions - well there is nothing stopping the long list of players at our club who get 4 and 5 possesions a game going and collecting a few cheap ones.

You See Synbad you seem to have forgotten the most basic of concepts to our game and that is why we have the ball - they cant score .
Busting your gut on the training track is going to win you any games

kouta - campo - whitnal - and braddles got the ball - they were continually in our top 5-10 players - if the rest of our players performed like them we would be in this situation .

Elliott paid them that money because thats what others were offering for them - Do you think if someone offered that sought of money for wigans we would pay to keep him - No bloody way - why because he is shit.


I think you are judging Pagan on his mid year report card...we need to judge him when he has completed his contract and had a few seasons to coach the young kids from scratch....I'm prepared to give him that time as I dont see any quick fix coaches on the horizon....criticise Pagan all you want but give me alternatives....who would you have coaching us?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:40 am 
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Geoff Southby
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I prefered the old culture before Pagan when we weren't the joke of the competition.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:41 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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TheGame wrote:
I prefered the old culture before Pagan when we weren't the joke of the competition.


We weren't a joke in 2002 under Brittain?

Give me a break - we were a joke long before Pagan came along - he has restored more respect than he's lost.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:42 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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phoenix johnson wrote:
Quote:
I think he'd make a pretty good assistant coach given his wealth of experience. Not sure about his communication skills but is someone the young Bombers would look up to.


I think his communications skills are quite sound given the fact he had every player hanging off his every word that day he took training out at OO.


Yeah, sounds like he had all the Blues players respect and attention. No doubt he is a legend around the place, but not so at Windy Hill. Still, if he is a good communicator he should go alright.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:47 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Deano Supremo wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Think about what you just wrote down Danny - you are defending a bloke for bagging a games record holder and an out standing champion of our club. And defending a coach who only culture change he has brought to the club is a losing culture and a one the breeds supporters that criticise our past champions.Because they dont like his methods or playing style. (which by judging from all training reports he is the process of changing)

Love and defend the club Danny by all means but be mindfull of the results we have been having


Have you ever had a post that isn't a thinly-veiled stab at Pagan?


I dont think the post about strippers mention Pagan at all :)

and tell me why its acceptable for other to post 10 fold the number of post bagging our players and me not to bag Pagan

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:48 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Sydney Blue wrote:
Deano Supremo wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Think about what you just wrote down Danny - you are defending a bloke for bagging a games record holder and an out standing champion of our club. And defending a coach who only culture change he has brought to the club is a losing culture and a one the breeds supporters that criticise our past champions.Because they dont like his methods or playing style. (which by judging from all training reports he is the process of changing)

Love and defend the club Danny by all means but be mindfull of the results we have been having


Have you ever had a post that isn't a thinly-veiled stab at Pagan?


I dont think the post about strippers mention Pagan at all :)


I'll have to check it out.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:50 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Deano Supremo wrote:
TheGame wrote:
I prefered the old culture before Pagan when we weren't the joke of the competition.


We weren't a joke in 2002 under Brittain?

Give me a break - we were a joke long before Pagan came along - he has restored more respect than he's lost.


No we had a lot of competitive losses under Brittain and plenty of injuries to boot. Under Pagan we have been shameful in a number of performances.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:56 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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TheGame wrote:
Deano Supremo wrote:
TheGame wrote:
I prefered the old culture before Pagan when we weren't the joke of the competition.


We weren't a joke in 2002 under Brittain?

Give me a break - we were a joke long before Pagan came along - he has restored more respect than he's lost.


No we had a lot of competitive losses under Brittain and plenty of injuries to boot. Under Pagan we have been shameful in a number of performances.


Pagan hasn't had the cattle. 2004 restored some respect by getting ten wins out of what should have been a spoon side. 2005 won Wizard Cup with what was a spoon side.

Our list has been clearly the worst in the league for Pagan's entire tenure, and for two years of that he had his hands tied behind his back due to draft penalties. Only now are we starting to resemble an AFL team rather than a VFL team. I can't for the life of me understand what the hell the Pagan knockers have expected him to do under these conditions. He's Denis Pagan, not Jesus f*cking Christ.

IMO if we stick with Pagan, he will redeliver us to were we belong, in the top half of the competition.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:14 am 
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Harry Vallence

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Deano Supremo wrote:
He's Denis Pagan, not Jesus f*cking Christ.

IMO if we stick with Pagan, he will redeliver us to were we belong, in the top half of the competition.


Deano how many times do you have to be told thats Marc Murphy :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:42 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Deano the draft penalties have had little impact the last few years. They start to really hit home this year because this is when the guys we missed out on would be really establishing themselves.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:43 am 
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Harry Vallence
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Location: Within the old Carlton recruting zone ...
Deano Supremo wrote:
TheGame wrote:
Deano Supremo wrote:
TheGame wrote:
I prefered the old culture before Pagan when we weren't the joke of the competition.


We weren't a joke in 2002 under Brittain?

Give me a break - we were a joke long before Pagan came along - he has restored more respect than he's lost.


No we had a lot of competitive losses under Brittain and plenty of injuries to boot. Under Pagan we have been shameful in a number of performances.


Pagan hasn't had the cattle. 2004 restored some respect by getting ten wins out of what should have been a spoon side. 2005 won Wizard Cup with what was a spoon side.

Our list has been clearly the worst in the league for Pagan's entire tenure, and for two years of that he had his hands tied behind his back due to draft penalties. Only now are we starting to resemble an AFL team rather than a VFL team. I can't for the life of me understand what the hell the Pagan knockers have expected him to do under these conditions. He's Denis Pagan, not Jesus f*cking Christ.

IMO if we stick with Pagan, he will redeliver us to were we belong, in the top half of the competition.


Brittain inherited a finals team in 2001 (finished second in 2000) and then proceeded to turn it into a wooden spooner in a year. Regardless of the close losses or not, that 2002 performance was a disgrace.

Pagan isn't attracting as much criticism these days because of the draft penalties and the financial mismanagement of the club BEFORE he arrived. His has been the hardest job ever undertaken in the AFL. As others have said, lets judge him at the end, not midway through the rebuilding cycle.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:52 am 
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Geoff Southby
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I have given Pagan 3 years and he has taken us from last with heaps of injuries to last with little injuries.

By the way Britts coached the side in 2001 and he basically was in 2000. His record craps all over Pagan who is the worst performed coach in our modern history.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:53 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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TheGame wrote:
Deano the draft penalties have had little impact the last few years. They start to really hit home this year because this is when the guys we missed out on would be really establishing themselves.


Exactly!

The list Pagan inherited was SO [REDACTED] that not event the number 1 & 2 draft picks in 2002 would have helped during Pagan's reign.

Dukes is right - Pagan has taken on a task never before seen at this level. IMO he's done as much as humanly possible to lift us out of the shit.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:56 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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TheGame wrote:
I have given Pagan 3 years and he has taken us from last with heaps of injuries to last with little injuries.

By the way Britts coached the side in 2001 and he basically was in 2000. His record craps all over Pagan who is the worst performed coach in our modern history.


Brittain's record craps on Pagan's?????

Where the hell were you hiding in the 90's? And if Brittain is the Messiah why is he coaching in a two bit league in QLD?

3 years - draft penalties - a list that was an absolute @#$%&! joke thanks to Parkin and Brittain.

Tell me Game - exactly what steps would you have taken differently to Pagan? Point out the mistakes Pagan has made and what he should have done differently. Even with the benefit of hindsight I reckon you'll come up short.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 10:59 am 
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Geoff Southby
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Deano Supremo wrote:
TheGame wrote:
Deano the draft penalties have had little impact the last few years. They start to really hit home this year because this is when the guys we missed out on would be really establishing themselves.


Exactly!

The list Pagan inherited was SO [REDACTED] that not event the number 1 & 2 draft picks in 2002 would have helped during Pagan's reign.

Dukes is right - Pagan has taken on a task never before seen at this level. IMO he's done as much as humanly possible to lift us out of the shit.


I beg to differ I think he has played less talented players over more talented because of bias. I think he has chopped more talented players off the list at the expense of retaining a bunch of hard trying no hopers. I think a better coach with less of an ego could have got more out of a talent like Beasy.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:19 am 
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Ken Hunter
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where is beasy playing now? or Cambell? How many went after Manton? Beaumont is play for whom? Murph? Alan? Plunkett's where?

who are these stars pagan let slip through his fingers - show me one that has gone on to establish/confirm their star status?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:22 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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TheGame wrote:
Deano Supremo wrote:
TheGame wrote:
Deano the draft penalties have had little impact the last few years. They start to really hit home this year because this is when the guys we missed out on would be really establishing themselves.


Exactly!

The list Pagan inherited was SO [REDACTED] that not event the number 1 & 2 draft picks in 2002 would have helped during Pagan's reign.

Dukes is right - Pagan has taken on a task never before seen at this level. IMO he's done as much as humanly possible to lift us out of the shit.


I beg to differ I think he has played less talented players over more talented because of bias. I think he has chopped more talented players off the list at the expense of retaining a bunch of hard trying no hopers. I think a better coach with less of an ego could have got more out of a talent like Beasy.


I would be interested in your list of more talented players....
re: Beasy..I liked Beasy as well but his form with Bendigo probably shows that he cant take the next step and will only ever be a good VFL player at best....

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