So many problems
List Management
Easy to highlight things because all teams stuff up here but
I was highly critical of of the Saad trade
IMO you don’t trade out a first round pick for a older player who is a good player but has only played in that position his whole career
Zach Reid was the player Essendon* picked up with pick 10(8) and is developing into a very good key defender still young
We acquired pick 48 in this trade traded away that for pick 30 and 51 and used the 30 pick to acquire Corey Durdin who has been injured a lot but has only played a couple of good games as a HF and is going backwards despite finally getting a clear run with injuries
The next year we traded out pick 6 and a future third rounder and acquired Adam Cerra another trade I was critical of because at the time Cerra was the fifth best mid at Freo after Brayshaw Serong Mundy and Fyfe what upside did Cerra have. He isn’t quick not a penetrating kick
Again Cerra is a good player but he ain’t worth a first and third rounder
And both Saad and Cerra haven’t progressed as players

Depth
So therefore your depth is going to be impacted because it’s all your eggs in one basket approach
We haven’t learnt when the evidence is in front of us selling the farm to get Jagga Smith
Coaching
With a team that clearly is too slow in the midfield why is it that Voss hasn’t given Saad and Durdin midfield time
Both players have speed
Because he clearly is fearful of getting smashed in stoppage and contested ball
So he sticks with the same game plan with predominantly the same players in the same positions
We are at best mediocre
He won’t take risks because he doesn’t want to lose his job

Leadership
Zero onfield particularly the last 2 weeks
Saad has zero Ditto Cerra
Too many introverted types
Newman has been a massive loss in this area but other players don’t step up
Darcy Moore goes out
No problem
Ned Long gets pick up for virtually nothing
Ditto Oliver Dempsey running around in the ammos
Again I’m picking things in isolation
But this is a microcosm of why we are where we are
It don’t matter what we think
It’s what the club thinks
And until the club actually acknowledges it’s mistakes and actually changes it actions we will always be ordinary with occasional short live sugar hit which won’t give us the ultimate prize

We get too many things wrong

Having said all that, when you look at our high draft picks over the past decade - SPS, Dow, LOB, Philp, Stocker - there's a reasonable argument for trading out for a player that's been in the system a few years, still has young and guaranteed to have a decent floor. Put it this way, if we'd drafted Cerra with a first rounder in whatever year Freo took him, you'd say it was one of our "hits", probably the best of the non-#1s.

As I said earlier today, recent history suggests we do our best work in supplemental and mid season drafts: Cottrell, Boyd, Lord, Cincotta, M.Carroll, maybe White.

Perhaps our best formula is to use half our draft picks, use the rest on mature talent, and use the supps/mids to build depth. I definitely do not want to see our spine traded for picks alone. We need to fill that 22-26 age gap.

saad was ok. at least he had something we were low on - good track history at staying on the park, and speed to burn.

i'm all for plugging holes.

Reasons why we are ordinary are many but the biggest issue for me apart from a winning culture is our reliance on our big name players.

Our bottom end players have never been good enough. We carry too many passengers. The modern game demands system based game plans and not reliance on individual brilliance.

Too much salary invested in too few. Not enough b and c graders on our list, who complement our game plans.

What tends to occur is the bottom end players are exposed in key moments during games. Whether it’s a fluffed kick, missed chest mark, unforced errors , stupid decision making etc. No amount of effort will cover up these basic fundamentals of being a good footballer.

Look at how Collingwood get the best out of their team. Generally, it’s due to an even spread of talent. They learnt pretty quickly that massive contracts with Grundy and Treloar would hinder their chances of sustained success. Subsequently have filled gaps with smart recruitment of older age players. Not just one but multiple. We on the other hand tend to throw all our eggs into the one basket.

The thing with the Pies is that they all trust one another no matter who .... big name or no name. If you're free and available you'll get passed the ball.
I find that total trust doesn't apply at Carlton. Weitering to Young hardly ever happens ..... Cripps to Ollie yesterday didn't happen.

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"IF YOU FAIL TO PREPARE, YOU'RE PREPARED TO FAIL" - Mark Spitz

I read somewhere today that Graham Wright oversaw the trading of Grundy, picked up 4 players and they won a flag 12 months
later. I would let TDK go. Split the compo pick and plug the holes in the list with some good established players. We are desperate for a small forward and some run off half back.

Exactly what I was going to post, well, sorta, after reading keoghs. There's no guarantees.

A bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush; and one jagga in your hand is better than 2 in the bush, like Dow LOB SPS or the like.

I think its mature talent we are after and we get that achilles heal in order. We have too many kids. If we are too top heavy, and have no room, make room and sell one.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I like it! If TDK is gone, let’s play Pitto and HoK from next game. Let’s get a look at HoK and use Pitto to protect him. Flower TDK, if you’re going you can flower off (seems like he has mentally anyway).
Would GC do Walsh for Rowell? Straight swap.
Charlie to Geelong for Meirs and they’re first.
TDK compo and Geelong first to WCE for the Allen compo.

To address a couple of things from above posts…

Working backwards, I very much doubt GC would trade Rowell for Walsh. I wouldn’t. And I would have thought we have enough inside mid bulls and we don’t have enough racehorses.
Having said that, I think Walsh under a better system would be amazing.
(I’m not entirely sure that Harry under a better system would be much better because while the delivery to him would be better, I’m not convinced he would be able to follow the system and run to the right spots at the right time…)

I also thought we shouldn’t have traded those top 10 picks for Saad or Cerra. FWIW I think we could have got both deals done for a bit less! HOWEVER, I wonder how many of those who didn’t want those trades were last year advocating for us to trade 12 and 14 for Houston (who btw isn’t setting the world on fire at the Pies and also, I doubt he would thrive in our system either).

Also, I don’t quite buy the argument about how our bottom 6 are dragging us down. Once again, I think in a better system, they would be performing a lot better, as is the case at many other clubs with players who, if they were at Carlton, would be underperformers. As others have said, the key ingredient to us winning games relies on our stars playing blinders rather than everyone doing their bit. (Having said that, it is difficult to back that up with evidence, given how few games we have won over the past 12 months!)

I am hoping that Wright casts the same critical eye over our team as he did at Collingwood although there he was head of football. Hopefully, he can also critically assess how Lloyd has been going in that role. They traded out Grundy because he was too expensive and he wouldn’t accept a pay cut. I would be horrified if we paid anywhere near what StKilda is supposedly offering for TDK.

If I was Priestley, I would be seeing if we could get Wright into the CEO role immediately. And then, if I was Wright, I’d sit the whole group of players down and give them the lay of the land in terms of salary vs success. I think from there, the immediate list management opportunities would become clear.

very true B, but i'd keep him for what he brings to the team. he is the only player, in my opinion, who gives unconditionally for the jumper and the team - not even cripps can say he is 100% for the team 100% of the time, as he can play very selfish footy

if sos could stay on the park, he would be the perfect captain

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my last one was rubbish

100,000,000%. jsos embodies what this club is. or, was...

cripps is endemic to where we are as a club. a selfish leader, who doesn't actually do much leading. worries about stats and numbers and then wonders why we're not winning things.

... it all filters down from voss, imo. voss has his favourites that he trusts and plays (look at doc, he's 2 years past it). so when the playing group ignore a few betas making leads into central spaces, as the alphas look for their other alpha mates on the flanks, in 2 or 3 on ones ... and we turn it over. lose possession and no one chases and we give up another goal. it's all deeply embedded into our culture and psyche, imo ...

there is no team ethos here, and there hasn't been one in years. decades. we aren't connected as a unit. we don't play for the badge. shit, we don't even play for each other, let alone the supporters.

it's dire. watching geelong and pies play it's hard not to be envious of what they do and how they do it.

if we lose to Essendon* ... for me at least, it will be our lowest point since when we sacked pagan - we are nowhere as a club and it's time to start over.

and now the rumours have started that one of the leadership group want out - see the List Management thread - and it could explain the lack of effort all round and of these players.

its groundhog day with this club, ol' synbad was right, the fish's head is rotting again..

no other team in the league aside from the saints is as stupid as us.....

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my last one was rubbish

more damning evidence and footage.

the really frustrating thing is some of us have been identifying these very things for much longer than 2 years. under voss, there's been no improvement only regression.

drain the swamp.

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1HFM3UzF2a/

So, just to add context because we have lots of experts appearing with half truths, to kick the club whenever things get tough.
Apparently Corey Durdin has been "injured a lot" but Zach Reid is "developing into a very good key defender still young"

In 5 years Zach Reid has played 19 games. 10 games before this season due to constant soft tissue injuries. He did a hamstring again on the weekend. Many Essendon* supporters believe his body is not built for AFL football. Similar to Caleb Marchbank.
Corey Durdin has played 55 games. Meanwhile in that time Adam Saad has played 97 games. He has been All Australian and over his career he has been above average for disposals, (kicks and handballs), tackles and metres gained. He was bought in as a running defender and led the AFL in running bounces in 2 of those years and is currently 2nd in the AFL this year. Attempt to twist it any way you want. At this moment we're still miles ahead with that trade.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Thanks BV. I meant to come back to that post once I'd looked up Reid's stats. I'd actually thought he'd be in the mid-30s, but 19. Nineteen! If he was a Carlton man there'd be a riot. The team that consistently has double digits on the injury list and has no footspeed goes and recruits a beanpole who manages four games a year, when we could have had Adam Saad! Sakc everyone!

Puzzled as to why people are beating up on Adam Saad . Having a good year as his whole career has been with us . Still got plenty of zip .

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All my dangerous friends

To be clear, k Saad has been great. Cerra has pulled his weight too.
I just think we could have got both deals done for less than a top ten pick.

And, as I queried on my earlier post, I wonder how many of those criticising the Saad trade (and to a degree the Cerra trade) were pushing for us to trade two first round picks for Houston…

Reid has shown this year he is more than capable of of being a key defender
It takes a few years to develop kids whether it’s injuries or adjusting to AFL life

I reckon Durdin has a lot of upside but he has been very disappointing this year
Reid has been very good and big guys take time to develop
I couldn’t give a shit Durdin has played 36 more games if your talking about playing from 18 to 23 years old
Saad has been a good player
I did say that ditto Cerra but imo we gave up too much to get them

Saad shows zero leadership onfield for a guy of his experience
His pace would be better served further up the ground where we are devoid of pace
Blue Vain your posts defend the club a fair bit
How many games have we won in the past20?

I'm not defending the club at all. Our performances this year are beyond defending. But if you want to kick the club, at least be factual instead of offering half the story to suit your hindsight recruiting.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

The thing is that philosophy of giving away high draft picks for players doesn’t work unless the player is an absolute gun
I could come back at you and say you failed to highlight some of the things I posted such as Cerra being the number 5 mid at Freo
Reckon I’m being factual
Not much point posting back and forth
You and I have different views
6 of the last 20 by the way
Only one decent win out of those 6
So surely you would change things up like putting Saad in the guts
Ditto Durdin
Because what Voss is doing aint working
Interesting with Viney out Goodwin had to try something different
They would be mad playing him back in the middle
Also giving Oliver a tagging job and Rivers in the guts
All of a sudden their midfield doesn’t look vanilla
Why doesn’t Voss try something different different