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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 3:31 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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bondiblue wrote:
Hornet wrote:
The problem with the game plan...

It requires Cripps to be in Brownlow form...
It requires Curnow to be in Coleman form...
It requires Weitering to be in AA form...

...to have any chance. We lose these 3 to LTI's and then we're truly [REDACTED].

Players unavailable is an issue but there's problem with treating an injury list amount as an arbitrary number. Most players you should be able to replace as the next man up... in a proper system based plan.


True.

Except your last line seems to be contadictive.

Injury is an issue, but a number doesn’t represent a tipping point?

Not arbitrary at all. It’s empirical and we have not been able to win with more than 8 out, consistently, even against the bottom teams. Fact. Says something about our list.

We had 6 kids, not one which is what Pies had. Can’t put a seasoned head on 6. We are spread too thin and promoting players to get games into them, not the panacea to fill a gap…..we had 10 gaps to fill. There’s a breaking point. We know what it is. No point ignoring it, believing another coach can weave their magic to overcome inexperience and unproven kids.

Ok, let's use your theory...

Collingwood's injury list is bigger than ours... didn't stop them making us look foolish

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 5:48 pm 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:40 pm
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Hornet wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
BamBam7 wrote:
My gut tells me we need to stick with Voss.

Make changes to the footy department and assistant coaches as necessary and make it clear to the players that if they don't want to play for Voss, we'll find them a new home in the off season.

Even if Voss isn't our next premiership coach, he's more than capable of leading the team for a couple more years until we get the back room staff and culture of the club fixed. There's no rush to move on from him.

This idea that a change in coach and one or two trades will have us top 4 next year is a fantasy. Our problems run much deeper than that.


Agree with this, if we have a good run with injuries we know Voss can take us deep into the finals. If we decide to rebuild, or even refresh the list, and/or have a a bad run with injuries replacing the coach won’t fix anything.

I say that whatever else we do (and we do need to do other stuff like revamp the list, assistant coaches and football department) we should stick with Voss until end of 2026.


It’s pointless sticking with him until the end of 2026. They need to either re-sign him for an extra 2 years or sack him at the end of this year.

Nobody in their right mind will come if there’s nothing but noise around the senior coach for all of next year, and let’s be honest, we’ll probably be shot again so that’s a likely outcome.

I agree...

If we decide the coach is not to blame and go down the rebuild route, then we need to extend his contract... so he can oversee said rebuild.



i think its our only choice ... we just simply cant replace another coach. it hasnt worked and it wont work this time.

Assitants need to be reviewed
Recruiting needs to be reviewed

I enjoy going to the MCG home games, same group of people for years so you start to get to know them ... talk about the game, talk about the club etc...

the theme was pretty consistent last night ... it has gone from Voss is done, to ... you know what, i dont think he has the cattle, voss cant kick it for them, voss cant make the on-field decision for them.

honestly, i think this falls on the players, and the recruitment of said players.

we just haven't got the return from any of our "recruits" .. not even close. look at the recruitment of all sides around us at the end of the year, they all got better, they all got players to suit their needs ... we got jagga.

we lost jagga, we lost newman, before a ball was bounced, so whilst every other side has recruited and improved, we started the season in deficit. is it really any surprise we have fallen away?

recruitment is key
development is key

and even then, its not 100% it equates to a premeriship, but you know what, without it, you have no hope. we could have the best coach to ever exist in the AFL, and i dont think it would matter with the way we turn the ball over.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 5:50 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 9995
Location: Australia
Hornet wrote:
DesEnglish wrote:
sinbagger wrote:
BamBam7 wrote:
My gut tells me we need to stick with Voss.

Make changes to the footy department and assistant coaches as necessary and make it clear to the players that if they don't want to play for Voss, we'll find them a new home in the off season.

Even if Voss isn't our next premiership coach, he's more than capable of leading the team for a couple more years until we get the back room staff and culture of the club fixed. There's no rush to move on from him.

This idea that a change in coach and one or two trades will have us top 4 next year is a fantasy. Our problems run much deeper than that.


Agree with this, if we have a good run with injuries we know Voss can take us deep into the finals. If we decide to rebuild, or even refresh the list, and/or have a a bad run with injuries replacing the coach won’t fix anything.

I say that whatever else we do (and we do need to do other stuff like revamp the list, assistant coaches and football department) we should stick with Voss until end of 2026.


It’s pointless sticking with him until the end of 2026. They need to either re-sign him for an extra 2 years or sack him at the end of this year.

Nobody in their right mind will come if there’s nothing but noise around the senior coach for all of next year, and let’s be honest, we’ll probably be shot again so that’s a likely outcome.

I agree...

If we decide the coach is not to blame and go down the rebuild route, then we need to extend his contract... so he can oversee said rebuild.


Fair enough, agree with all the above.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 5:52 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 9995
Location: Australia
Hornet wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Hornet wrote:
The problem with the game plan...

It requires Cripps to be in Brownlow form...
It requires Curnow to be in Coleman form...
It requires Weitering to be in AA form...

...to have any chance. We lose these 3 to LTI's and then we're truly [REDACTED].

Players unavailable is an issue but there's problem with treating an injury list amount as an arbitrary number. Most players you should be able to replace as the next man up... in a proper system based plan.


True.

Except your last line seems to be contadictive.

Injury is an issue, but a number doesn’t represent a tipping point?

Not arbitrary at all. It’s empirical and we have not been able to win with more than 8 out, consistently, even against the bottom teams. Fact. Says something about our list.

We had 6 kids, not one which is what Pies had. Can’t put a seasoned head on 6. We are spread too thin and promoting players to get games into them, not the panacea to fill a gap…..we had 10 gaps to fill. There’s a breaking point. We know what it is. No point ignoring it, believing another coach can weave their magic to overcome inexperience and unproven kids.

Ok, let's use your theory...

Collingwood's injury list is bigger than ours... didn't stop them making us look foolish


I think you’re missing the point, our total list lacks depth so eight out all out.

Collingwood’s list does have depth so they can cope with many more injuries than we can.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 5:58 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 15060
Hornet wrote:
The problem with the game plan...

It requires Cripps to be in Brownlow form...
It requires Curnow to be in Coleman form...
It requires Weitering to be in AA form...

...to have any chance. We lose these 3 to LTI's and then we're truly [REDACTED].

Players unavailable is an issue but there's problem with treating an injury list amount as an arbitrary number. Most players you should be able to replace as the next man up... in a proper system based plan.

I watched the Youtube channel Blue Abroad last night. Terry who hosts it brought up something similar. Said to have a good year we rely on our top 6 players to play well. These being Cripps, TDK, Walsh, Charlie, McKay and Docherty. Cripps has had a very ordinary year. Walsh and McKay have not played much due to injury and personal stuff. Charlie is playing like he doesn't give a stuff. TDK is playing with a massive weight on his shoulders and now likes he just wants to year over and Docherty is finished sadly.
When your best players are all struggling at the same time it is any wonder we are struggling as a team. Having said that the gameplan Voss wants is too taxing and has taken a toll on the group.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 6:00 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Location: Sydney
If Docherty is one of our top six then Voss deserves an OBE for keeping us above West Coast


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 6:11 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Location: Sydney
By the way, I find this idea of "dependence on the top six" being some trap that only Carlton would fall into kind of unconvincing. If Naicos, Jaicos, Moore, Cameron, Elliott and Pendlebury were unavailable or serving up turds every week, where would Collingwood be? Probably better than us right now, but also nowhere near their current level, either. We haven't even mentioned Newman or E.Hollands, the former most definitely more of a top six player than Doc, the latter arguably in our top 8 on talent and importance. So add Sidebottom and, I dunno, Mihocek to the list of turd-servers. Reckon they'd be facing an uphill battle to make finals in that scenario. It's not just the length of the injury list, it's the stature and strategic importance or uniqueness of the names on the list. Closest parallel is Essendon* when they lost everyone over 6'2"... hey presto, they get smashed every week.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 8:27 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 15060
GreatEx wrote:
If Docherty is one of our top six then Voss deserves an OBE for keeping us above West Coast

My bad, the other was Weitering not Docherty.
Weitering has had an okay year but not as good as his previous ones.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 10:48 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 5:15 pm
Posts: 7437
sinbagger wrote:
Hornet wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
Hornet wrote:
The problem with the game plan...

It requires Cripps to be in Brownlow form...
It requires Curnow to be in Coleman form...
It requires Weitering to be in AA form...

...to have any chance. We lose these 3 to LTI's and then we're truly [REDACTED].

Players unavailable is an issue but there's problem with treating an injury list amount as an arbitrary number. Most players you should be able to replace as the next man up... in a proper system based plan.


True.

Except your last line seems to be contadictive.

Injury is an issue, but a number doesn’t represent a tipping point?

Not arbitrary at all. It’s empirical and we have not been able to win with more than 8 out, consistently, even against the bottom teams. Fact. Says something about our list.

We had 6 kids, not one which is what Pies had. Can’t put a seasoned head on 6. We are spread too thin and promoting players to get games into them, not the panacea to fill a gap…..we had 10 gaps to fill. There’s a breaking point. We know what it is. No point ignoring it, believing another coach can weave their magic to overcome inexperience and unproven kids.

Ok, let's use your theory...

Collingwood's injury list is bigger than ours... didn't stop them making us look foolish


I think you’re missing the point, our total list lacks depth so eight out all out.

Collingwood’s list does have depth so they can cope with many more injuries than we can.

Like X said, it's who is injured rather than how many...

Pies depth players go ok playing their roles... they even have the luxury of resting 5 of the best v Freo away and still getting the job done... how would they go under Voss' bomb, bomb, bomb system? who knows...

Remember two years ago we had great depth, we were winning, Carlton supporters were happy... this year prior to round 1, with this list, some even predicted a top 4 finish, only to now have changed their tune. 2 years ago mad skillz... today no skills?

I'll give the coaches some credit as they identified that we can't go forward playing the way we did, so they tweaked things a bit and it worked to address a weakness, unfortunately it's created another weakness. We're better defensively but now struggle to kick a winning score. It's created uncertainty and confusion.

The game plan is unsustainable for this group...

_________________
“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 11:27 pm 
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John Nicholls

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 9995
Location: Australia
Two years ago we had depth of middle aged players, but the depth players were too injury prone in the long run, so we got rid of them and replaced them with a bunch of youngsters. So we now have no depth. A dumbbell list with a big hole in the middle age bracket.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 05, 2025 11:43 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Posts: 7437
sinbagger wrote:
Two years ago we had depth of middle aged players, but the depth players were too injury prone in the long run, so we got rid of them and replaced them with a bunch of youngsters. So we now have no depth. A dumbbell list with a big hole in the middle age bracket.

Not sure you can classify players that can't get on the park due to chronic injuries as depth... on paper maybe

What we did do is trade away scapegoats like Fisher, Dow and to a lesser extent, Owies...

Kennedy would've been handy this year... but he had poor skills... but not at the Dogs

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