Thankyou for your honesty Cazzesman.
My assessment of Jordan Russell is based to a large extent on watching him very closely in the VFL last year, which you will no doubt agree is a vastly inferior standard to the AFL.
I hear what you're saying about him being young and skinny but what concerns me is that at the same stage of their careers, Massie, Vance, Sporn and Wiggins were all much better players than Russell, who was very much a peripheral, fringe player in the VFL last year.
There are parts of his game that I'm concerned about. He's not particularly courageous, and as I mentioned earlier, he doesn't play tall and he doesn't win the ball in close. I'd love to hear your own analysis of his strengths and weaknesses and what sort of player you think he will develop into.
I know you're not very happy with me Cazzesman but I would love to hear about what went on behind the scenes that led to him being picked at 9.
In theory, do you disagree with my opinion about early draft picks ? Do you disagree with my opinion about our need for tougher, stronger bodied midfielders ?
I wasn't criticising Jordan just for the sake of it. In all honesty, it was just a brutally honest assessment of one of our players. I also appreciate how difficult it is to make the right draft choices as there are so many variables involved.
So please forgive me and please tell me about the thought processes that went into drafting Jordan at pick 9

Yep, I laugh every time I read something like: "Play the kids - it doesn't matter if we lose - we need to blood them".

I laugh because you just know the commitment to playing youth at the expense of immediate performance will last only as long as it takes the opposition to score their first goal. Then the knives are out, and the kids, recruiters, and coaches are the first targets.

I'm sure the term "blooding the young players" wasn't supposed to mean that they are covered in blood after the knife wielding maniacs otherwise known as "supporters" are finished with them

A shame we didn't draft an inside ball winner under the father-son rule or a tall versatile KPP in the 2004 draft. Or we might have missed getting a quick ball carrying wingman who can mark, is accountable and has more potential than an inside player.

What rules did the AFL just change to make the game faster?

What positions were Koutoufides and to a lesser extent Camporeale playing early in their careers?

Just out of interest JuzzCarlton, how many games did you see Jordan Russell play in the VFL last year ?

Hack (appropriate shortened nickname??),
How about we all agree to disagree, actually SUPPORT our players, and if need be, dissect the decision of drafting JR at pick 9 as opposed to other players taken after him, once he has fully matured, has shown what he really can and can't be, and when he has a competent side around him supporting him also?

He didn't really dump on Russell that bad, just posted his thoughts on him so far from seeing him first hand. It's not like he said he's no good and never will be.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Firstly I was not involved with the club for the 2004 draft.

What is the point of comparing him to the players you mentioned. They are/were all struggling so what has that to do with anything. It's a long bow to draw if you think 'They were better players when they started than JR so therefore JR will be a worse AFL player', when the kid is just 19 and commencing his 2nd year in Senuor football. By the way some might beg to differ on the suggestion that any of those players did anything in their 1st year.

Here is the draft from pick 10 to 41 in 2004

10. Collingwood: Christopher Egan (Murray Bushrangers)
11. Port Adelaide: Adam Thomson (Sturt)
12. Richmond: Danny Meyer (Glenelg)
13. Melbourne: Matthew Bate (Eastern Ranges)
14. Essendon*: Angus Monfries (Sturt)
15. Melbourne: Lynden Dunn (Calder Cannons)
16. Richmond: Adam Pattison (Northern Knights)
17. St Kilda: Andrew McQualter (Gippsland Power)
18. Brisbane Lions: Cameron Wood (West Adelaide)
19.Port Adelaide: Ryan Willits (Northern Knights)
20. Richmond: Dean Polo (Gippsland Power)
21. Hawthorn: Thomas Murphy (Sandringham Dragons)
22. Western Bulldogs: Jesse Wells (Tassie Mariners)
23. Collingwood: Sean Rusling (West Adelaide)
24. Adelaide: Nathan Van Berlo (West Perth)
25. Carlton: Adam Hartlett: (West Adelaide)
26. Hawthorn: Matthew Little (Calder Cannons)
27. Brisbane Lions: Patrick Garner (Western Magpies)
28. Adelaide: Chad Gibson (Norwood)
29. West Coast: Matthew Rosa (North Ballarat Rebels)
30. Essendon*: Andrew Lee (Tassie Mariners)
31. Sydney: Jarred Moore (Dandenong Stingrays)
32. Geelong: Brent Prismall (Western Jets)
33. St Kilda: Cain Ackland (Port Adelaide)
34. Port Adelaide: James Ezard (Calder Cannons)
35. Port Adelaide: Fabian Deluca (Eastern Ranges)
36. Richmond: Luke McGuane (Broadbeach)
37. West Coast: Mark LeCras (West Perth)
38. Western Bulldogs: Damian McCormack (Dandenong Stingrays)
39. Collingwood: Travis Cloke (Eastern Ranges)
40. Adelaide: Ivan Maric (Calder Cannons)
41. Carlton: Luke Blackwell (Swan Districts)

Monfries at 14, McQualter at 17, Polo at 20 and Moore at 31 where the only true onballers in that group. I know nothing about Thompson at 11 so can't comment on him.

I love McQualter and wish we had picked him up in 2003 at 75 but such is life. At the time Monfries wasn't a real in and under hardnut. He was an onballer who ran well and carried the ball. Polo hasn't been sighted since and is in and out of the Coburg Seniors. I saw Moore play on Friday against Essendon* and he is coming along okay but he has limited positions on the field and can be easily run off when resting up forward.

So in effect if you were looking for an in and under ball magnet then choices were very, very limited.

CFC wanted/needed leg speed, ball carrying ability, skill and a player with the ability to be versatile i.e play a number of positions.

JR is Super quick and at 188cm makes for a nice package in todays AFL. He may not be an in and under ball magnet at this stage but let me give you just 3 names and you will see that players can evolve over time.

Ratten, Kouta and Ling. None of these were in and under ball magnets until they were well into their careers. Ling played as FF in all his early U18 games. You know about where Kouta and Ratten started.

Houlihan is currently being moved into a role in the midfield. He may or may not make it but he has played out wide and down back to get some defensive skills. Now he has put on some size and fitness CFC hope he can make the move. Time will tell.

Monfries, McQualter and Moore. will struggle to play many other positions on the field. I think in the future JR will be able to play all over the ground. That kind of versatility is needed in todays game.

Of course we need stronger, bigger bodied midfielders but they don't grow on trees. Sometimes you have to try and get abit each way and hope players can grow in confidence through hard work and plenty of ground time. Player development certainly helps when the player is in a strong team with solid leadership. The Leadership at CFC last year was not what it should have been so it is no-wonder the new kids got left behind at times. If you went to the VFL las year you would have noticed that JR showed plenty of Voice and leadership in the 2nd half of the year. He was often seen and heard encouraging his team-mates during the breaks.

Yes JR needs to work on many areas but the point is....HE IS. What more can you ask. He has his head right and is giving it his all. Now he needs support from the senior players and to be given ground time. Like all kids he needs to be allowed to make mistakes.

You might think it was a brutally honest assessment of JR but IMHO it was a cheap shot like many others that get thrown around here by others.

I don't really think you do appreciate how hard it is to pick the right players every time. The statistics of players that survivor in the AFL for any length of time proves that fact. If you really did understand all the variables you wouldn't have criticised a 19 yr old quiet so much.

Remember that Michael Tucks played over 50 VFL games before he got a look in. Is the game tougher now. I think it is in some aspects. So why are we so keen to trash the young kids so early, particularly when they have played a miserly 60 minutes of footy.

Remember back to when you were 18/19 and ask yourself how you would have coped with these types of resposibilities, expectations and pressures.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

How is that relevent to what he did on the weekend and how good he'll be in three years?

I saw enough in his VFL games to realise why we drafted Jordan and what type of player he will be in 3 years time.

How many games have you seen Thomson play other than on the weekend?

About 4 years ago I remember Geelong supporters ringing up radio stations complaining that their team wasn't going anywhere, the young players they'd drafted weren't showing anything etc etc. Those teenage players are now blokes like Bartel and James Kelly; players most carlton supporters would give their left nut to have in a navy jumper. I can understand Hackenschmidt's frustration because it seems like we're still a long way off and we all hope that the young players that we get are gonna turn our fortunes around. The problem is we simply don't have a core of quality senior contributors that can take the heat on the field while the kids ride shotgun. Teenagers will be exposed in the our team because the opposition can afford to pay equal attention to all of our players without fear of being punished considerably on the scoreboard. What this means is that we arent going to see JR contributing untill he has physically matured and can legitimately hold his own, but when that happens all of a sudden we'll have a bunch of blokes like Simmo, Murphy and Blackwell who'll all be in the same situation and the team will start to go forward, just as Geelong went from being cellar dwellers 4 years ago to being one freakish kick out of a grand final.


As an aside, our pick 9 was actually pick 11; Jesse Smith and Mitch Morton would have gone top ten if it weren't for the father-son

Cazzesman, we obviously disagree on a number of points so I'll just concentrate on our main point of difference which I reckon is the Jarred Moore v Jordan Russell issue.
I can't agree that Jordan is a ''nice package for today's AFL''. One on one he looked stretched at times playing on little blokes in the VFL. In one game he had to be moved off Leon Davis because he was getting done in the air. He certainly doesn't show the ''in and under ball magnet'' potential that Ratten, Kouta and Ling all showed when they were in the reserves. Ratten by the way, was an in and under ball magnet from day one (20 possessions on debut in half a game in the midfield in the last round of 1990.)
At least Jarred Moore is very good at one position and very good in a position where we are crying out for a powerful inside midfielder, one who was the most influential player at the 2004 under 18 championships. In fact, he was largely responsible for Vic Metro winning the title. The big worry with Jordan is that he mightn't be able to play anywhere - weak overhead and too soft for the midfield.

Thanks very much Cazzesman for the detailed, thoughtful response. It's certainly given me a much better understanding of the thought processes of our recruiting team.
Cheers.

JuzzCarlton, doesn't Jordan's inability to consistently beat smaller opponents in the VFL such as Leon Davis and Justin Berry cause you some concern ?
If he's such a good mark, why does he get outmarked so often ?

Why is it that people say others have agendas???

We all want whats best for the footy club and it is in a mess dont you think???Or in your opinion were flying?????

So the only agenda people REALLY have is whats best for the club yeah????

Might look at it from a million different views.. but to say there are a heap of agendas is silly.... isnt it????

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Hackenschmidt, u may have gone the VFL regularly last year, but that doesn't mean your opinion re: Russell is an accurate & fair one. Barb sits on the boundary line in her red&white gear every game, but that does not make her an expert on who will & who won't make it in the AFL.

I went to a few games last year, I occasionally go to training & I also went yesterday. And I reckon one of the few positives to come out of yesterdays game was Jordan Russell. He has skill, he has speed & he has a rare commodity that separates very good footballers from the average footballers - POISE!!!

And this bollocks that you MUST draft either a KPP or an in & under midielder with your first draft pick is laughable. You select the best player available at the time. Some players that would not fit into either of your 2 categories as 17-18yo's include Craig Bradley, James Hird, Jason Ackermanis, Daniel Wells to name a few.

From my limited observations of him, Jordan Russell is a frustrating player to watch in that he doesnt get enough of the ball for my liking but when he does he impresses me with what he does with it and so does his burst of speed. These attributes are as high a priority as is fixing our leaking backline and replacing some of our ageing in and unders.

Based on performance to date you have to say Monfries looks the better prospect but obviously our recruiters formed the opinion Jordan has more upside.

Yes, I agree Russell looks soft in play but he is still a kid with a slight frame playing against men. Of course he would feel intimidated in the physical contests. I am sure when over the next few years when his body
mutures in size and strength he will put his body on the line.

I just want him to focus on improving his reading of the play, take on opponents with his speed and continue to work on his disposal which is quite good at this early stage of his career.

Funnily, Ratten's name came up in the discussions. Ratten played his football in the back pocket. He was very ordinary. I was keen for the club to axe him at the time. As soon as he moved in the midfield he became a star. I will not be making the same mistake with Jordan Russell leading into his second year.

Not so sympaqthtic to the plight of Livo, Sporn and Wiggins who have been with the club for over 4 years now. They deserve the scrutiny of the supporters.

I hope Jordan plays all 22 games on the wing this year and learns from the experience.
he I would be more

no if I have a bloke runnign who i think is best fit then i have an agenda. if i think denis is shit and go watch a game then report on that game, i have an agenda. Agemndas colour our eyes. Why does it bother you. its just a word. Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda Agenda.



see there are so many well lets use the word barrow, wouldn't want to over use that other word, and everyone wants to push their particular barrow which is fine buit it is still a barrow.


Me i am a meta barrow pusher

I like to talk about other people's barrows.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Dannyboy.. you might like indulging in beer and poems.. i like analysing carlton.

You have 2 agendas..
i only have one....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Just slightly off the topic, but Marc Murphy would want to be a superstar based on Dale Thomas' showing this evening in Perth.



GUN!

I guess this is all about the maybe, could be and should be.

Yes Moore was very good in the U18 Champs. If I remember correctly a kid with dreadlocks kicked 10 goals from a FP in one game in 2004. He now plays for Crib Point. So What.

Moore was very good in one position in the TAC be he hasn't set the world on fire at the Swans just yet and there is no guarantee he will make it any more than JR will. JR was a solid contributor playing for SA in the U18 Champs across HB and Moore was good as an onballer. There are players who never even played State Football who have kicked on.

The past means little now. It will all come down to attitude, work ethic, opportunities and a good run with injuries.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

So Murph needs to get his arse into gear if he wants to surpass Thomas' ONE solid game?

Gee, Murph is in trouble.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Nah, not saying exactly that, but the flavour around here has it that Russell looks anything but a senior Bullants player, let alone Carlton player, whilst we're enjoying what Chris Egan has to offer to the senior team on a semi-regular basis so far.

Then it also seems the bona fides of Dale Thomas are all but assured, whilst Murphy gives away 2 inches and seemingly a fair bit of natural inside and outside talent to him.

The "Russell/Egan Fiasco" is likely to end up in "Massie/Tarrant Debacle" territory.

Just wondering if Murphy/Thomas will be read in a similar ways in seasons to come...

I think I'll call it the "Murphy/Thomas Affair".