We will be a good team when we no longer have

De Luca
Sporn
Scotland
McGrath
Kouta

in the starting 22.

I am not slagging off any of those mentioned, and especially McGrath is a good, solid contributor, but I think while we have guys who do not add anything special to pull us into being a top four side.

A few years I would have thought myself sacrilegious including Kouta in such a list but watching him in the first two rounds has convinced me that the game has moved past him.

The first three have all had a few years now to prove themselves but I can't see them getting any better so they have to be replaced by guys who are, or will be, better.

For the time being I have not put in McLaren since it is bit early. Nor have I put in Livo as I still think there is some upside with young Luke (he says hopefully).

_________________
Carlton - Nothing's changed
I still love you, oh, I still love you
Only slightly, only slightly less
Than I used to, my love

hmmmm, maybe Deluca and Sporn, but i think Scotland is a quality midfielder, when he is in form he is unstoppable, he just needs more consistency in his game.

Well God is Navy Blue, it's an interesting way to put it. But it does beg the question as to who is next, and any other 'what if' scenarios there are on our journey towards our the 17th Flag.

I'd like to take a different perspective. Other clubs 'preserve' their 'x' factor players, players such as, Buckley, Voss, Hird, and now Riccuito. That's because they can turn a game if they are not exhausted (or even worse injured and not playing ) from the rigours of todays game; especially for those who have been in the engine room for ten years. I have dream and Koutas in it.

We will be a good team when...

1...We can afford the luxury to preserve Kouta. To finish his career in style beside Fev in a forward pocket, or in the backline next to Thornton, Livingston, Whitnall. Sure he will loose pace and stamina, but he will always have an 'x' factor ability for a few more years. Whilst he fills the dreaded FP and BP issue, others who are young can grow with a legend next to them, who will show them poise as well as some tricks that come with wisdom.

2...Kennedy calls CHF his own, and the candidates for CHF can claim spots around them. (Could be in 2006-7)

3...Walker is permanent attacking HBF or genuine midfielder. Let the opposition try to tag him and Lappin in the 2 HBF.

4...Carrazzo steps up and consistently earns more possessions than Stevo.

5...A young star ruck comes in, peaks early, and supports French in the ruck (Maybe Aisake).

6...Carlton has the tallest and most mobile forwardline in the AFL with Fevola, Kennedy, Fisher, Setanta and Waite, with Betts as their crumber.

7...Full back is settled for a generation when Livo, Saddington, Thornton or Whitnall give way to Hartlett (I'm hoping he will be the next Southby).

9. Fevola kicks excess of 90 goals.

Aint to far away Flag 17...if you're thinking 5-10 years away, you're either too young to understand the wheels of time, or , I think you're a pessimist.

I have a dream with Kouta in it.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Every year there's a list of players who are on the way out but struyggle on. Every year there's those who we think we need to delist to move on.

Last year it was Norman, Johnson, Morrell plus others

For me last year it was also Prendergast and Davies.

There'll always be the bottom rung players that you want to move on.

ps Every club also has those that just do a job. mgrath is one of them. He does it well.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

Just figured I'd point out that Kouta can't really play as a defender or forward anymore. He's not quick enough to play on the small forwards or as a quick leading forward, and he can't jump anymore ruling him out of playing on the talls or playing as a tall marking forward. The best we can hope for with Kouta is a full time midfielder or a pitch hitting one coming off the bench.

I'm not as sure as you about Deluca and McGrath GNB, McGrath is one of those players on your list you need, has a bit of pace, bit of skill, bit of grunt, can play multiple positions and is a solid contributor.

If you recruit a list full of superstars the whole way through they will inevitably break up and leave your list in turmoil for a few years while you recover. It can lead to things like hanging on too long to blokes, poor performances due to lairising. You see this in a few sides but in their case it's more about the top 27-30 in the list.

Guys like McGrath do a fantastic job and don't take a huge chunk of your TPP. I salute you Cory.

As for Deluca, there's still time for him (another year after this on current contract). His time is nigh as a forward, but his time as a ruckman? Let's see him put on a few kilos as that mobility could be a huge asset.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

It's dumb coments like this that keep me away from this site!

Actually i take that back...................i too can't wait for Kouta to finish his career either - because people like you will realise just how much we take the great man for granted.

I am sick to death of carlton fans carpping on Kouta. Do you see Collingwood fans pissing on Buckley? Or Essendon* supporters eagerly awaiting the day that Hird retires?

In the past 5 years he has won 2 B&F's, a Runner up B&F's and has been in the Top 5 of the AFL for Clearances, Hard Ball Gets & Loose Ball gets............................Not to mention having more heart than half the @#$%&! squad!

Yet he continually gets people who think the're supporters saying his 'Past his time' or 'money hungry' or what-ever else!

If i wanted to hang shit on one of the greats of my proud footy club..........i would have chosen to be a Richmond Supporter!

I just can't get over it! I just can't @#$%&! fathom it..................Week in week out he gets crap laid on him! And i just can't possibly believe how people like you think we will be a better team without him? Are you serious???????? We'd be [REDACTED]! Screwed! Pathetic!

I've seriously had enough of supporters like you and i just don't think i can be among a crowd of so-called Carlton supporters who are just gonna continually give shit to one of the finest IF NOT the most honest players ever to pull on the navy blue jumper!

Seriously................see ya's later!

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Ryan makes a comeback!

I think he was just saying we need to be able to win without Kouta, which we never looked like doing until this year.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

We will be a good team when we no longer have

Kouta

in the starting 22

If i misunderstood that then i'm sorry!

Actually no, i'm not....................if i misunderstood that then the post should have been written better! [/quote]

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Try meditation, yoga or some spiritual experience to release your anger Ryan. Against the Dees I rated him to be our worst performanced player and no player should be above criticism. This includes club greats of yesteryear like Kouta. What I find perplexing is in the same breath you demonstrate your contempt for the Kouta critics according to your signature box the Coach must go. It's alright for you to offer an opinion. You need to respect diversity of opinion a little bit more and start enjoying life.

I know!

I'm gonna start a new thread bagging Deluca!

You're right about Heath Scotland. He shits me. Why? He can find the footy sometimes, as he did against Melbourne with plenty of possies. But he doesn;t hurt the opposition with his posessions. @#$%&! useless kicking.

If I was an opposition coach I'd almost concede 30 touches to Heath. Contrast this to a player like Stevens, if he gets 30, the other team will know about em.

Has anyone noticed also that Scotland seems to be swinging onto his left foot nauseatingly often - a la Michael Sexton with stress fractures back in the good old days. Why oh Why, it doesn;t help heath.

As long as he is a guaranteed start in the middle, we won't be much chop.

You're right about sporn, deluca. Go away, fellas.

McGrath might play a useful stopping role in a good team, but he's getting too much ball currently - CAN'T KICK

Leave Kouta alone, I know he's old etc. yada yada, but - respect please. He'll retire before we're good again anyway so leave him alone.

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They will know that they've been playing against the famous old dark blues

McGrath can't kick? I can't believe that this point comes up time and time again.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Obviously he can kick a footy alright, don't take me literally. But watch how Footscray kick to eachother, how their back flankers hit chests with low 50m passes, and compare it to McGrath.

We at times use McGrath as a rebound defensive 50 player, and according to my desired standards (for CFC to be the best), he can't kick very penetratingly.

Make no mistake, our kicking is the biggesty impediment to Carlton being a good team. We have players that find it now, we have a decent forward line. But we kick like shit. If we kicked like Footscray we'd be a top 8 side. Our blokes can find it, they can't use it

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They will know that they've been playing against the famous old dark blues

I think the biggest problem is our disposal by hand actually, we don't handball very often (15th in the league and 16th in terms of difference from our opponent atm) and when we do it is very poor for such a simple skill.

Combine that with our poor sheparding and vision with the handball, and you have blokes under pressure when disposing the ball, which results in scrubby kicks into the 50.

Having said all of that, decision making and sheparding is improving, however handballing skills are not. Doesn't take much to work on and it can be very damaging to hit a player in space by hand.

_________________
29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

The same could be said of every club in the AFL.

Well I've responded twice and haven't answered the question. Looking at the list, if we're going to improve we'll need to delist players like Prendergast, Sporn, Wiggins, Bannister, Longmiur, Davies, Batson and Chambers as soon as possible. They aren't good enough. Some of them might make valuable bit players for other clubs on the verge of premierships but for us they're just taking up valuable space on our list and are taking opportunities away from kids who actually have a potential future with the club. Question marks also have to be placed over Deluca, Bryan, McGrath, Livingston, and Teague at this point.

And here's a team I would love to see play a few games later on this year and into the future:

B Flint, Hartlett, Thornton
HB Walker, Whitnall, Carrazzo
C Simpson, Houlihan, Murphy
HF Fisher, Kennedy, Waite
F Betts, Fevola, O’hAilpin
R French, Stevens, Bentick
Int McLaren, Scotland, Blackwell, Kouta

Kouta is a champion & legend of this club................................our coach is not!

It's one thing to say he had a bad game, i'm all for that (and he did have a poor game to celebrate his 250th) but to constantly week-in, week-out bagg one of our greatest ever players IS NOT THE CARLTON WAY!

Again...................................

See how many bulldogs supporters say it about Grant.
Ditto Collingwood with Buckley
Ditto Essendon* with Hird

It's just really sad, that's all!

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

ryan2000 forget comments like that from ignorant flower....

We know how much he means to the side and how much he loves carlton.... i loved what i heard about koutas speech after round 1 match...

kouta is blue through and through and loves carlton...

And is still a pivotal member in our team.... the guy still racked up 27touches.... what more does he need to do!

_________________
Corinthians 9:6- 8

Cory McGrath has been fantastic this far this year. I think he is massively underrated as a player that does many of the 1 %ers that other more "visible" players don't. He is composed, kicks well and his decision making is very good under pressure.

I have no probls with the young guys coming through and taking Cory's spot in the team, but they'd want to have some pretty solid and consistent form to warrant selection and oust him IMO.