There were some positive signs last night infact was very impressed with the way we attacked the ball and the physical pressure we applied. I think young Walks confidence is rising and we can start to see signs of what he has promised.

Whats the go with Livo? I can not understand the reasoning behind not playing Luke Livingston last night. It was obvious to us that Croady would take Lance to the cleaners so why play Lance down back when Livo could have filled that position and Lance play forward from the first bounce. Its basically saying we protecting a blow out then winning, what message is that to our youth we trying to implement and develop.

How can Setanta get a gig before Livo? i agree we need to play the kids but i believe we should play then when there ready and sorry to say Setanta just aint upto it yet, and i emphasize YET. He has the build and the athleticism for football, he just needs more time. I felt that by Denis playing him last night he did more harm than good. Why play a bloke thats foreign to our game up forward and to hold up our forward line.

How would a Luke Livingston feel that a guy who is foreign to this game gets a gig before him. Luke has busted his guts for this club the pressure he is under week in week out is amazing but yet a guy who you can see at training has no confidence, misses sets shots from 30 out, looks lost get a game before him.

How can someone be rewarded for that. I do understand we should play the the younger guys but, is playing the younger guys then flooding every player back really developing this team.

like you im pretty frustrated, i would like an answer from Denis about this matter regarding Livo. Like i said earlier there were some positives last night

I think the reason he isnt getting a game is because he is useless

let me ask you this, who would have put in a better performance last night and be more affective out of the two Livo or Santy?

I was at a loss when Livo was dropped after the first game. I thought he did well and deserved a place in the team. Though Livo has not been a walk up start to the team, I hope he does well in the Ants today and plays next weeks so this will free up Lance into the forward line.

I'm not sure if he falls in the category of one of Pagan's dislikes. If he does then he is doomed. Though Livo will never be a world beater he can be serviceable. I do hope he makes it,but I think he will be superceeded by Hartlett.

I think overall Livo is not in Pagan's grand vision of the future.

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Leaders do not care what other people say about them. When people start talking crap about you, thats when you know you've made it

Livo is all about match up the key forwards for the Hawks where not a good match up for Livo

IE Williams and Croad to quick for Livo

Perhaps he could have been played as a key forward and put in the side to maybe match up on Cambell brown or Everett when they went forward..

He will be in the Ants today see how he performs

It's a fair point, Livo comes in plays OK on bigger, slower opponents. Gets a quicker one and suffers the same fate as Lance in the 1st qtr last night. Is dragged and not put back on. He has the size/strength to at least cause a contest and bring the ball to ground.
I would like to see him given a chance as the angry man on the forward line before we discard him forever.

cold winters day, hung over eating fish n greasy's watching the bullants

I'm sure we all feel for Livo ... BUT ... he's going to slip behind the Hartlets, Bowers, Edwards, Flints, Saddingtons, that come thorugh the ranks. The 2000 draft happened a long long LONG time ago. We have to move on!!

I sure do feel for Livo, but Teagues situation is looking even more tragic!! From B&F to a lost soul in 2 seasons.

Agree, but it will take some time for these guys to put on the size required to have an effect. Livo has to be one of the more powerful bodies on our list, why not use it now as it is something we lack. We need some muscle out there and Fev seems to be the only one throwing it around, the one we can least afford to loose.

The likes of Hartlett, Kennedy, Bower and Edwards will take time to fill out and i wont be expecting so much of them soon. Livo is a seasoned player he has the strength to play down back. I like the idea of him playing the aggressive forward can bring the ball to the ground and create a contest and would apply more pressure than a deluca.

The way i look at it is Livo would get a game at many clubs, Deluca, Setanta (yet) would not. So why keep him out he could have been handy last night up forward and back.

I agree with the playing of Livo on the forward line ( in some cases especially when we are a depleted team ). Livo was drafted on the form he showed as a key forward in his junior days, it is our the club that has attempted to turn him into a defender.

Hindsight is a beautiful thing and looking back to last nights game , Livo may have offered more footy smarts on the night than those that Carlos displayed. No critism of Carlos, but in his early development he needs on field support and last nights team selection was not going to provide him with that. Livo has grown up playing this game.
However if Livo played not only could Pagan have tried Livo forward, he could also have used him in some rotation in the back half if required, Be it as the Floater," the Cloke Position"
IMO Livo needs confidence, something that our club ,coach and supporters to some degree are not giving him. He use by date may be fast approaching at Carlton, but i really believe that in a "better balanced side " he still has a fair bit to offer .
If i was on the Doggies MC i would seriously be looking at Livo as a forward option come seasons end. He would come cheap and when he plays as the Huntered not the Hunter he may relax a little more and play to his potential.

Clubs can make and destroy careers, and some players just need that change. Livo for mine might just be one of those players.

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Livo would be a handy player down at the doggies infact at most teams, to good to be playing VFL and if thats the role Denis has for him coming in and out when its necessary then give him either a chance to play else where on the ground or move him onto another club like the bulldogs where he could be a good player.

In my original Ghost article I has Livo at CHF but it was obvious after denis's comments that LKivo was not even being considered. Why i do not know. He could have played forward last night and contested!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

If Denis doesn't see a future with him then why would he persist playing him down back, wouldnt you try and get some value out of him by either trying him up forward, im sure livo would kick a few.

This could be an opportunity for us to gain from like the bombers did with Teddy Richards, they got a top 20 pick for him. I think the doggies would part with a second round pick for the services of Livo.

I know where you are coming from but i suspect Pagan might just be a little bit stubborn or not a very reactive personality.
Maybe he thinks Livo is only a backman and nothing else. I wonder if Pagan actually rated Livo as a junior during his coaching days at North. Can anyone come up with Norths First Pick in the Livo Draft. I'd be very interested to know which way they went that year.

Who knows only Pagan does.

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

You're absolutely kidding me about the physical pressure aren't you? Were you actually watching the game? That was the worst display of physical pressure I've seen thus far. To think only a couple of weeks ago we DID actually attack the ball, and after last night I am livid. Midfielders jogging around throwing their hands in the air waving for the ball like the were in space. There was no desperation on the Hawthorn ball carriers to force turnovers. I was saddened watching what was on display last night.

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I did watch the game and i thought we sustained pressure up until the last quarter. Come to think of it so did Denis in his after match press conference. I wouldnt say its an honourable defeat cause no defeat is worthy of praise