I would like Denis to remain coach until the end of this year and start afresh with a new coach next year.

Does Ratten have enough experience to be a coach? He was assistant at Melbourne for only one year.

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There is no footy god

Beaumont???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Does that excuse Lappin for some shocking kick out's and that terrible OOF? Stevens for refusing to chase and playing anything close to accountable football? Both of these guys are in the leadership group. Start setting the example rather than leaving it to Walker and Murphy. Walker busted his arse with some long chases.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Look, youll find the leadership group at Carlton have not been known for selfl;ess acts while Denis has been there and they have been the leadership group.
The problem is they are not Andy McKays... McKay wasnt a fan but he was always professional on the field.

These guys are slowing us down..
As is Denis.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

No...but along those lines.

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Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

Please, SOS, please concentrate on raising your boys to be fine young father-sons. And come and watch them play with your lovely wife. That's all we ask. TheDoggie defence needs you. We don't ... in the nicest, possible way

So you would rather we finish 9th this year (rather than 14th-16th) by recruiting a fresh coach mid-season?[/quote]

That must be the dumb quote of the year. Of course I would rather finish 9 than 14-16th with a new coach, you'd know the players are more focussed and committed, the crux of alot of our problems. Theoretically, 9th would mean the list is really starting to go somewhere. The list is coming along ok and the right coach would see greater respect and committment carry on over a number of years. The list would really kick on and develop then. No guarantees in the draft, because you finish 14-16th. Judd's etc..., don't come along every year. Actually an overall comparison of the rookie list and the draft over the last so many years across all clubs has seen rookie listed players play way more games, including top 10 picks. Tells you something about development within a club and a good coaching staff. You see Sydney and Geelong with early picks, no they've just had good coaches to develop them.

I don't see what's wrong with this statement. Denis got it right, he can't ruck or take a mark, does a fine job of getting uncontested possies on the wing. Maybe he should of said "he's something along the lines of what I use to keep my gloves warm when I'm in the coach's box"


I've never been a fan of Pagan, purely because in the past the players looked like they just didn't give a rat's. At the moment, we aren't winning games but it looks like the players are genuinely putting in, which to me is a sign that they're actually putting their bodies on the line for him.

Pagan would be stupid to give up his contract early, he'd know that whoever steps in will reap the benefits of our recruiting in just a year at the helm - much like Eade has done at the Dogs. Pago will want to ride the storm like bomber thompson has done at geelong then give up the big I told you so when kids like bower and russell take the step walker has this year.

The only coach I would look at now would be Gary Lyon, purely because he is a well-liked, intelligent and high profiled candidate; attributes that really need to be brought to the club in light of the fact that our president is the human personification of beige slacks and our coach is Mr Serious.

He may not have a chance to ride out the storm, I cannot possibly see the CFC hierarchy copping loss after loss - in the long term, the membership drop will overtake the payout of the coach.

We have to do some calculations as to whether if we can get a decent coach who will get us winning games will give us more drive and membership sales than a coach who although he has a contract, seems to completely lack any balls.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

As a long-time supporter of Pagan, I have consistently told those who have called for his head to be patient, because of the handicaps imposed on the club in recent times.

While I still think he is good with young players, and shows patience in the right areas with our kids, I think he is being slaughtered in just about every other area.

What concerns me most is the losing culture that now seems ingrained in our club, and unfortunately, Pagan is the man most responsible. I have become tired over the last three years of hearing Denis complain about our lack of depth, our lack of talent, our lack of size, the penalties handed down against our club, the lack of experience, etc, etc...

While all these problems maybe true, it doesn't help the morale of the club to hear them repeated ad nauseum, and it makes the players believe they're inadequate. If a person is told they are hopeless often enough by an authority figure, they inevitably come to believe it.

Supporters of Denis will say our players are not up to the task, but looking at the players who took the field for us last night, I find it hard to fathom the litany of skill errors from players who are in our 'elite' group. These are skill and decision making errors, which are the responsibility of the coaches, which means ultimately, the senior coach.

While some may ask whether we can afford to payout Pagan's contract, I'm more inclined to ask (with our membership at 25,000) whether we can afford not to do so?

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"The old believe everything, the middle-aged suspect everything, and the young know everything." Oscar Wilde

Hulme?

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

Denis said in the HUN http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 42,00.html



Well, then Denis, you really have lost it. You call a good structure having Fev double-teamed?

And if some are short of a gallop, then rotate the bloody bench.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Do you think this board would be willing to weather the shit-storm that would occur should they sack a coach 5 weeks into a new contract?

Not going to happen any time soon.

I wrote the other day that I was willing to give Denis until the end of next year to show we were going somewhere but I have to agree with those who say you should give a new coach some time to find his feet and assess the list before the end of a season. With that in mind and considering the stage of the contract I think mid-next year is likely to be D-day for Denis.

I hate the way we're playing at the moment and there are clearly still issues within the club that are hampering our development and Denis is certainly not exempt when it comes to the causes though I don't believe he's solely responsible either.

If we are to appoint a new coach this year, next year or whenever can we PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE have a proper bloody process to select one. This club has appointed every @#$%&! coach of the last 30 years on the whim of a President without any sign of a rigourous selection process whatsoever. I want to see a list of applicants as long as my arm and I want to see the best and most impressive candidate selected regardless of whether he's "navy blue", red and black or @#$%&! pink.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Well said GWS … and hopefully, Garry Lyon will never be on that list. I'd knock back a flag if it meant it was going to be coached by Lyon!

I'm happy to wipe the slate clean after Denis' first two years. But will admit the frustration is growing within at the lack of improvement in on field results. Having said that, it was so nice after winning against Melbourne in R1. The feeling and spring in the step it gave me was one sorely missed. And if we reflect back to R1 Richmond lost by 20 goals. So, the opportunites are there for Denis' stocks to improve again. That's the great thing about footy, you get a chance next week.

One thing is certain though, we're earning our stripes as loyal supporters right now!

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Pagan couldhave been better tactically but also the reality is players also didnt do enough of what they need to do
tctics prob needs to be put into another thread but in the third quarter we should have been a head of Richmond to some extent we did everything right until we got to our forward line
I said it before but our skills and perhaps confidence is letting us down
Waite should have bagged 3-5 goals in the thrid quarter if he had taken up to 4 marks within 30 meters of the goal square but he dropped every mark if he had taken 2 of them may have turned out differently
Fisher looped the ball over his head when he was 15 meters from goal when all he had to do was pass it to him ball sails over his head and gets rushed for a point. Scotland twice ran into 50 and blazed when he could have passed to a player who was free and on his own
theres 5-7 goals that could have been easily gotten lost and possibly allowed the tigers to capitalise and get the ball back and get a score against us.
tactically yer Pagan prob should have had Eddie lurking near Waite for the crumbs or someone could have told Scotland if you see someone free pass it to him rather than blaze and hope you make the distance when under pressure and hope for the goal.

But if we are not winning all the above counts for nothing and Pagan will be under heaps of pressure
Firstly what really annoyed me was Elshaug and Libba being kept on they should have been repalced end of last year.
Even more so now ... if its hard to replace Pagan as people have said well change the Assistants as i reckon they are responsible for the skills of the players more so than the Main coach.
Who would i bring in
Ratten - Respected carlton player maybe keeping away due to Pagan ... but the board just tell rats work with DP win the players and if something happens you could take over but get him back to the club.
Peter Dean - He is super respected from the little i have seen of him when he was helping out the blues he was great get him in and again he is carlton through and through.

If these changes force Pagan to change for the better so be it if they force him out then so be it but Elshaug and libba add nothing to this club at all and i blame them for the skill standards that the blues have had over the last 3 years and that from what i have been watching is killing this club and one big reason we are where we are at.
Get rid of these 2 liabilities and waste of space.

I aid at the start of this year that I'd give him a year. That i wanted to see us be competitive and for the players to play like they wanted to play for him. Think we are getting both things and I am hurting. @#$%&! the last three weeks have been frustrating because the opposition have been so crap yet we are worse.

Two things are bugging me.

Our kick outs

and when we have the ball there seems little fluid movement whereas opposition teams seem to be able to flow down the feild.

Still Walker, Simmo, Carrots, AB are all standing up. Murph was a great get. I was happy with Jordan last night, think he will develop into something. Liked what is aw of Hartlett in the NAB (if he can get himself right) still wait to see Kennedy - things are improving.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Whats all this.

Have I died and gone to heaven all the posters questioning the worth of Denis Pagan - Is the penny finally starting to drop is the message finally getting through to the loyal Paganites that this man has not got a clue .

Some of us have been saying this for a long time now

all those posters suggesting we cant afford to pay him out . you better think again - We cant afford to keep him . If we continue down this track it will cost us more than the 1.5 million or what ever the amount is .

That loss last night probably will cost the club 200-300k alone in gate reciepts for next week s game alone. Add to that the same the following week against the bummers and it soon starts to add up


Pagan cant afford to lose him

But can we afford to keep him

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Bloody heck, I'm agreeing with SB. What's the world coming to?

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

like I Said I feel like I have woken up to a dfiferent world

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

The world hasn't changed Sydney, people are just feeling shitty.

You can keep tarring people with your broad stroke brush (do you have a poster of John Howard on your wall?) but I'm not one of those suggesting Pagan hasn't got a clue. I'm suggesting he has until the middle of next year to get things on track. I actually think we're not in a dissimilar position to Geelong of about three years ago at the moment.

When a club's in the position we were in when Denis took over it will alway take at least two years to stem the bleeding. The list he inherited was as bad as any bar Fitzroy in the mid 90s. I don't judge him on that time. What I will judge him on is last year, this year and half of next. At that time I want to see some serious improvement and direction. Our list development has been excellent over the last couple of years and if it keeps going at the rate that it has I'll be very happy. Pagan may or may not be the coach to get the most out of them from there on but at the moment it's all about picking kids and I couldn't be much happier with the development of our under 22s.

I know you like to place people in little boxes such as "Paganite" and obviously that assists your lonely little grey matter to process anything with greater complexity than a donut (sans icing) but spare us the "I told you so" bullshit. I said a long time ago that Denis should be judged at the appropriate time. I haven't changed my opinion on that.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb