I think it's well known that Denis has never been regarded as a good match day coach - last night re-affirmed this view.

Thing that pisses me off is that his assistants have been tasked to coach each of their disciplines, ie Defence - mitchell, forwards - Daniher, Midfield - Libba. Surely these guys have to shoulder some of the blame for decisions made.

Coaching panel - all should be under the microscope!!!

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For some silly reason, you people want to assassinate him, and it's just rubbish. You people. All of you, ALL of you!

Wangers check my post i agree Elshaug and Libba must go and the sooner the better

If we need to get in new blood or shuffle

Line up would be
Mitchell - tactical / Midfield - Fulltime Blues
TD - Forward / Mentor to players
Demsy - Ruck keep as is

Bring in Peter Dean - Back coach / hardness . huge respect to players

And an outsider - ratten for Bullants maybe so he is close but not direct with DP if there is any problem there but he is then close enough to the club if something should change and can also improve player respect and i know players and supporters bith respect and like him and he seems to be good tactically and skill wise.

Come on GWS admit it your getting a little worried that the great man is not as great as you first thought . Its starting to worry you that a simpleton like Sydney Blue had picked it and a man with such getter intellect as yourself was fooled . The mighty Synbad has turned and CC is tinkering and many others are shattered to think that Mr Pagan isn't going to lead them through the desert to the promise land .


I will just sit here staring at my full size potrait of Little Johnny and wait for us to lkeep losing as I know ever loss we are closer to winning again . We are closer to ridding ourselves of this man who is trying to fool the footballing public- pretending he knows all about this coaching caper.

Your to patient GWS - the middle of next year will be far to late - footballing careers will be shatterd by then - Round 12-16 is the time

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

This is Grant Thomas's 6th year with a talent laden list.....and....?

This is Mick Malthouse's 7th year with a talented list....and....?

This is Pagan's 4th year with virtually no talent in comparison; and we want him out?

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Oh.....and Bomber Thompson's 7th year with a heap of talent....and....?

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

and how many flags have those nominated won again

Now lets count shall we - You start Warby

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

You really do have a bit of a comprehension problem don't you? I've said all along that Denis will be held to account when the time comes. Strangely enough I don't believe that time should be set by some half-wit watching the telly in Sydney. Are there questions over Denis at the moment? Absolutely. So there should be. I've never suggested otherwise. Should he be given longer? That's open to debate but if you think that this board's going to sack him an pay him out half-way through the first year of a new contract and cop the crap that would follow you're just a little misguided.

You really should barrack for Collingwood Sydney. Everything's black and white isn't it? I've never been a "Paganite" or a Pagan supporter" or whatever it is you continue to suggest I am and I'm sure I've never called him a "great man". But you stick to your box filling if it makes it all a little simpler for you.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

I'm neither here nor there when it comes to Pagan. I do feel a lot of people waste alot of positive energy when discussing Pagan, and whilst that energy is exhausted with the focus on calls for his head there's still no alternatives, that make sense, to change the current situation.

What I saw last night was alot of mistakes which is to be expected from the kids, but a lot of great signs and another foward step from Walker, Simpson and Murphy, who looked as though they nearly had what it takes to be match winners. That will happen one day. I saw a lot of potential in Russell for the first time. Will generate a lot of drive from HB. Most importantly I saw Houla give all our guys a lesson on silky skills needed for success at this level.

Supporters are looking for excuses. Cheap shots and lacking pragmatism. So Pagan is the blame for everything?

Pagan didn't kick the ball over Waite's head.
Pagan didn't kick 2.4
Pagan didn't drop 7 marks
Pagan didn't have 2 wild shots from 55-60 meters out of goal when there was better options.

Then there's the exaggerated argument that suggests that Pagan won games with the Kangas because he had Wayne Carey at CHF. Carey missed the start of his two last seasons with North and missed a few more games during those seasons as his body was deteriorating from the rigours of a contact game, and the Kangas did win most games without Carey at CHF.

Pagan was able to move his players emotionally from the day he started coaching, and the kids at Carlton respect him. They're really the only ones that count in the Pagan issue for me.

Sure there was a wall of stubborness when he took over as coach at Carlton, from old hasbeens at Carlton, who took Carlton to its first wooden spoon, and this was and still is perceived as a player management issue with Pagan. I'm glad he got rid of those players, because they used all their credits ASAIK. It's a tough job and tough decisions needed to be made. He made them.

Pagan took the job with Carlton, assuming he was coming to one of the 4 powerhouse teams, and we wanted him. I felt so sorry for him after assuming his position only to be confronted with the illusion of a powerhouse; exposed as a struggling club. A $1M penalty, effectively bankrupting the club, Draft penalties for the next 2 years effectively closing the door on high drafts necassary for rebuilding, an overthrow of a President resulting in a Richmondesque brawl that continues today. Pagan did not bring this upon the team, and it's the football club that has to take ownership of these issues.

The board recently made a decision to go along the youth and development path. That was a directive I hadn't heard before, and surely the only logical path forward given the quantity and quality of youth we have drafted, and playing well.

It's the same supporters that last week were excited by the legion of youth we have drafted in the last 2 years, that were prepared to accept growth pains with our kids, because we accept that it's the only way forward, and that they will come good in 2007 or 2008.

Now these kids are on the paddock and making mistakes, lose a game and Pagan becomes the scapegoat. Pagan tells us week in week out the reasons for the losses and I agree with him. What is he supposed to say? Nothing? I'd rather hear the truth. We could have won but we lost the 4 ponts. We made a lot of skill eras, and bad choices. Fair enough you have to say, as they are only kids. Fair dinkum there's a bigger picture unfolding, it's more than promising but patience is required during the rebuilding, and don't forget that. We all know it.

If our coach is sacked mid season this year or next, how is that going to drive memberships? How does that change the list? How does that fast track our kids? If memebership increase relies on success, well that will come, and we have to plan with that in mind. Fact of life, a new coach will not all of the sudden generate wins every game.

FFS have a look at the situation

22 pt win (WCE)
5 pt win (WB)


22 pt win (Melb) Rnd 1
15 pt loss (Freo) Rnd 2
7 pt loss (Swans) Rnd 3
32 pt loss (Haw) Rnd 4
9 pt loss (Rich) Rnd 5

Not bad for a bunch of kids, and they could have stolen all those games they lost too, if this and if that...these are the kids who will develop and get better, and will win games, and will get us to finals. Back them.

As for who is responsible for skills, well they have a lot to answer.

I'm looking for stability, and not cheap shots and head hunting. That's all bullshit and futile. I don't care too much for all the Houla Lance and Fev haters, because hate is in their nature, (refer to Mrs Houlihan thread and compare this one) and they're the ones who also hate Pagan, but offer no suggestions on how we can improve, other than the standard blame game and sack him and him and him, rather than we need to improve here and here.

Get real, we are on the march up. If you haven't got the stomach to accept our journey, take a break as you're not prepeared for the no pain no gain situation we are in.

I'm backing this team today and beyond, because I can see the light.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I agree with your reasoning BondiBlue!

Before i go ape over Pagans tactics i would be scrutinising the skills because if our skills where even average at the least tactically we would have been fine.

I rather blame Pagan for the skills of this side and next leadership of the seniors before i address tactics. if you anaylise last nites game we wouldnt have been even bothered with moving Lance back or taking him from the forward line or other changes we have suggested. What is killing this side is the skill level not the tactics or coaching on the match. Dosnt matter how good a coach we had in the box if the players cannot do the simple things like mark a ball / make simple decisions to the advanatge of our players .. Kick bloody goals in front of goal .. Hit a target from 20-30 meters then we are not going to win many of these matches .

Last nite match was sad from the skill level and i am not suggesting Westcoast pin point passing but just the basics of kicking goals instead of points / kicking passes to players not who are on there own ... taking simple marks. These things are the basics not trying to split packs or pin point passes. So whos to blame .. well i guess Pagan as he runsthe ship he can be blamed for the players lacking basic skills. IF pagans response is my assistants are responsible for the direct skills of the players well then that puts blame squarely on Libba and Elshaug. So Pagan if Libba and Elshaug shoulder the skills of the players they have failed dismally and should be much improved by now but in all 4 losses this year the biggest and most glaring problems has been the basic skills of the players which i know they are all capable of but. Some players have these naturally ie Murphy but more often that not they are taught and made to improve .... we just have to improve these skills and if Elshaug and Libba cant instill these basics let alone the better skills then they have to go
So PAgan is to blame for the skills if you are being let down by your main assistants then get rid of then and put in asistants who can improve our lists skills.

I can tell you now if we have eveb average or basic skills and took more of those marks or players passed or kicked the goals we would have won this game easily and beaten prob the hawks / swans and Freo.

Again i am not asking the players to be freaks and do something out of the ordinary that comes from either talented players or the players being good with there skills at AFL level already i just want the players to be good and 80% of our list could benefit from improving even by 20% to get us to the 50% level.
The comment we hear every week is that the team has shocking skills makes too many errors ... fix this and we are half way to becoming a very good club again

Cool it you two. FFS.

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Passionate discussion all round. But facts are facts. Fact number one is that Pagan doesn't communicate well with the younger players and the older blokes (whilst they don't despise him) don't embrace him either. Kouta for instance was hauled over the coals by DP a few weeks back when Kouta made those comments about Brittain. Kouta walked away shrugging his shoulders and mumbling something about "who cares......". I wonder if anyone walks away from a session with Worsfold with that attitude?

Fact number two - the younger blokes who are not in the senior squad can go on for weeks without speaking to DP. And when they make it back into the senior squad, they might be lucky to have a short one liner delivered to them about their efforts that week. Mitchell plays the biggest part with the kids. From what I know, the younger blokes like him. He is a raving lunatic at times. Short fuse and all but they respect him as he is harsh but fair and reasonable and more importantly CONNECTS with the guys!!!!!

Now, DP has been around longer than most of us and he has learnt to deal with men and manage a team better than most. So, I'm not suggesting that his way is wrong but (and this is the IMPORTANT point) the perception amongst the players is that IT"S NOT RIGHT. Their perception counts. Not mine. Not yours. Not the coaches. But the players.

Fact three - the assistants from Libba, Elsaugh down to the club doctor take their orders from DP. He calls the shots and is very autocratic. So, you can't blame the assistants. They only do as they are told, as good loyal assistants should.

Fact four - Ratten for senior coach? NO! Whilst I can't say why he left the dees after one year, I do know he was one of the poorest captains at the club for many a year. So, I'd say on that basis, no way.

Pagan's won 2 and Malthouse 2....(With other teams) and your point is?

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Thanks for the insight Preacher

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

We've gone from last to last in the time he's been here and have not looked like developing at least as a team (individuals, yes). He'd be the highest paid failure in history.

And yes, if we consistently misuse our skills that is a coaching problem, if it's not, why have a coach. As for this year, without his panicky, ultra-defensive tactics we may have beaten Freo, Sydney and even the Tigers last night. We got back into the Freo and Sydney games from goal down, once we started attacking. Thought they'd be a message in there to start with. We should be doing way better than 1-4.

What happens if we go 1 win 8 losses.... Still only the players to take all responsibility

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

Michael Gardiner perhaps?

If there's a problem with this scenario it's not Denis hauling Kouta over the coals it's Kouta's attitude and the fact that Denis didn't send him to the bullants for 8 weeks.

Absolute bloody disgrace for a captain of an AFL team to be doing that in front of others.

Worst captain ever (closely followed by Ratten).

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Totally agree. After Kernahan, leadership has been non-existent.

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"The old believe everything, the middle-aged suspect everything, and the young know everything." Oscar Wilde

McKay's the only one who can hold his head up. Unfortunately he wasn't appointed way earlier. Things might have been a little less ugly for a couple of years with a person with a little character leading the side.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

True about McKay, but I didn't remember his spell as captain when posting.

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"The old believe everything, the middle-aged suspect everything, and the young know everything." Oscar Wilde