Dont agree on Sporn.....Pick 11 and Essendon* were taking him at around pick 27 or so , Herald Sun and The Age both had Sporn going to Essendon* and Shane Osullivan was very pelased with himself that we had shafted Essendon* and he also thought they were taking Sporn at around 27...
Agree Sheehan was surprised at him going so early but if you notice they had the video tape of him playing for SA ready to go so he was expected to go top 40 at least.....surprising choice given Harris had trained with us and was such a rated player....

I'll say it again..Carey ran the player group at North...Pagan let him handle all the player side issues..while Pagan just coached and planned....thats straight from a ex North player...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Good Post !! Its doesn't say that Pagan can't coach but just that someone else might be better suited.

Something along the lines of Horses who fail for one trainer and move to another trainer and all of a sudden win Group races...

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

I used "quality" instead of "skill".

Longmuir has a couple of good skills and bugger all else.

Hamill has a couple of good skills and plenty of everything else (ie, application, strength, grunt, leadership)

I don't think you were being serious showbag, but comparing Hamill and Longmuir is a little like comparing the impact on the classical arts of Mozart's "The Magic Flute" and Joe Dolce's "shuddupa your face"

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Love Cricket? Love me

Great Post azzablue - and very close to the mark, Neil Craig has also bought other things to Adelaide like a scientific approach to training, player development and management.

The Allan Jeans days of "Players are like Sausages" approach doesnt work anymore and I'm afraid Denis Pagan is from that school. I will have to eat my words from a year or so ago, but Denis Pagan is not the man to take us forward IMHO .

And if the club thinks SOS is the man for the job then that is the time I am seriously thinking about not renewing my membership.

I reckon its time for radical thinking to bring this club into the 21st Century. Even someone like Ric Charlesworth be bought in as a Director of Coaching to oversee Training Programmes encompassing fitness, skill development - with a match day tactical team (answerable to him) would be better than what we have now.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

very true about the crows but - they are big big bodies (gee that helps)
they have a midfield thats been around basically since before Craig. They have a couple of great players/leaders.

what he has then done is bonded them and got them super fit.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

the crows analogy is a good one to a degree, but we shouldn't expect huge crow-like improvements with a new coach.

we don't have Goodwin, McLeod, Edwards and Ricciuto in our midfield, unfortunately

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Love Cricket? Love me

Its just coincidental that to my point that Neil Craig coaches Adelaide. Its what Neil Craig brings to the job that we need at Carlton not Ricciuto, McLeod, Goodwin et al (although a couple of those would be nice).

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

true true.. so who do we get???

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Love Cricket? Love me

Wholly Crap I had to read this post 4-5 times before I could actually believe what I was reading

Well put AGRO

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

They have recruited well too and have depth, SANFL association helps them get players as well....notice they have Bock, Welsh, Perrie out but still are a force.....agree that Craig had bonded them well and Ruccuito in particular is one of the best leaders in the comp. Westlakes is a nice facility and having such a huge membership makes the Crows a attractive coaching job....you couldnt complain about resources....

re: Mattner..you could see he was a good player when Ayres had him. but lacked confidence and self belief .....Craig seems to have instilled that in a few players...notice even our old friend Kris Massie was amongst the Crows best. last game....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Mattner is on the outs with Adelaide (out of the side for a couple of weeks??).... perhaps he'd be a good get for the club

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Love Cricket? Love me

Any comparisons between us and Adelaide are crazy. Sure there are differences between the coaching staff and the way they go about it, but the biggest difference is in the playing list. Just to start, they comapare to us in the folowing way;
players that have played;
100+
AC - 12
CB - 8

200+
AC - 5
CB - 2

300+
AC - 1
CB - 0

Doesn't sound like much, but take a 10 game player off our team and replace him with a Roo or McLeod ? That's what I was thinking.

Add to that that these players have all grown up together at this team and know how eachother operates.

Let's not divert from the biggest issue here, which is our list. It was crap 3 years ago and still is. It can't be turned around quickly under this system.

It will slowly happen - it's inevitable, and when it does Pagan will be loved as the saviour rather than the villain.

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Duke go back to 2002 and our list would have reflected what you have posted there how many 100 and 200 game players have gone since then. Craig has actually acknowledged that his list is old and actually took some of the blame for poor recruiting and not turning over the list as he was Ayres assistant coach. But instead of making wholesale changes he choose to work with them bring in different techniques and now they are working together . Pagan had an unique oppurtunity to harness the playing group and get them all working as one but he choose to drive a wedge through it

Thats what a guy like Craig brings to a club

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

No, the issue in this thread is the coaching staff and their practices. The topic, as AGRO pointed out, is now not that we are similarly placed lists, but that the method of Craig and his cohort is fresh and visionary, whereas ours are laboured and archaic..... No one has suggested that a Craig-like approach will automatically put us in the top 4.... but it will stiffen the launching pad from which to build the list.

The example of the crows is actually a very good one if the example is specific only to the activities of our respective coaching staff

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Love Cricket? Love me

Zachary.

By the way I'm not sleeping with SydneyBlue either.


Not that there would be anything wrong with that.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Neil Craig has learnt a lot over many years, from many different coaches. Rucci in the advertiser wrote an article last year that has quotes from Neil Craig and his philosophies of football. Everything he said made sense, logical and positive on a lot of facets of the game and the players. Most fascinating part of the quotes was the date. For it wasn't from 2005, it was from the late 1970's and his playing days at norwood.

Now living in Adelaide and getting Power and Crows drivel 24/7 you hear the players on the radio a lot. Over the start of this season the same words I keep hearing from players is 'natural game', attacking, good place to train and play.

Ian Perrie was interviewed last night on the radio and asked what it is about the crows and what craig has done. He simply put that they have team rules or structures they adhere to and they get a spray if they don't follow them (yes craig does give them) but after that they're allowed to play their natural game and will not get punished for making mistakes in the effort to play winning football.

Yes they'e super fit because they train to match conditions. they marked out subiaco oval on basheer reserve to simulate ground size. They have the money to have technology to study opposition teams like the bulldogs. They apparently spend hours doing match simulated drills, so in the game they are predictable for their teammates. Importantly they train with intensity.

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....and I say you're barking up the wrong tree. You can talk all you like about whether Craigs methods are better than DPs, but ever since the game began there's been more than one way to skin a cat.

Just because Craig is having success with a certain game style, doesn't mean it will work for all creatures.

As you well know, our list is far inferior to the Crows, they could play ring-a-ring-a-rosie and still kick our arse - regardless of their new-age styles.

The Crows opportunity is very small - lots of their players are approaching their used-by date. If they haven't won a flag this year or next, they'll need to re-build to replace McLeod, Roo and so-on. They may do this successfully but it'll be a real tough task.

You talk as if the new style is the ONLY way to go and I say taht's yet to be proven.

Remember when the Blues loaded the coaches box with assistants in the mid to late 90s - everyone said that was the only way to go. Why? 'cause we were winning - fact was we would have won regardless of how many coaches we had (Sticks, SOS and Diesel might have had something to do with that). Now we see every team with 50 coaches in the box and yet we still have teams like ours who are shite .

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We did not load the coaches box in the mid to late 90s - in fact it took till 95 to get an Assistant Coach in Ken Judge on board - by that time other clubs had 3 or 4 Assistant Coaches in-situ, and when he left in at the end of 95 we got Wayne Brittain on board as a single assistant coach, we added John Worslfold as an assistant coach in 99 (I think) but we were well behind other clubs at this stage with assistants in the coaches box.

We have been behind the times in this area for a very long time and its only been Pagan who has "me too'd" in the past few years with assistants like Mitchell, Elshaugh, Libratore, Daniher etc.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

It may have been more like 99/2000, but I destinctly remember talking to a mate who played in the then VFA while reading an article showing Parkin and all his men. This was definately considered a breakthrough by thew writer of the article in the HUN.

Anyway, I asked my mate at the time if he thought it had any credence and he said "if they win, they'll be geniuses - if they lose they'll be duds" But it all came down to who you put on the track.

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end of message

match day coach perhaps?



hey I wonder if Denis Mick and Kevin have all become too soft in their middle age. Maybe we need someone who will scream at the kids, who'll pull them off the ground, who'll drop them if they do not follow team rules.

Have we any team rules?

Has Essendon*?

Do coaches grow soft and pleasant with age? Do we need a younger coach to maintain THE RAGE?

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!