He isanother player who is developing well under Pagan

We are on track - everything is going fine

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for the sarcasm.

Sydney Blue has a point, but I think errs on the side of absolutism for dramatic effect.

Thornton started his career in the seniors as a stopper full-back because we didn't have one. In the Wizard cup he showed his (I believe) true talent... creating play from defence. I think T-bird's a very smart player, who would devastate opposition going forward.... especially if he's collecting ball on half-back.

I think where we (the fans) and Pagan have erred is in considering him a long-term stopper. Its another of those catch 22 situations that Pagan finds himself in, and another one you could argue that he's handled badly. Pagan should be trying to free Thornton onto half-back (ie, CHB) and away from the last line...but because T-bird's our best stopper at the moment he plays him as a stopper..... and, because of Pagan's new-found affection for Whitnall the defender, that's relegated Thornton to an even less significant creative role.

A coach serious about developing his young players wouldn't anchor thornton, and wouldn't stick a 26-going-on-30 year old player in his position and further stunt him.

Now, Whitnall has been good and may be leading our B&F even.... but that is irrelevant when the team is losing and the season is slowly sliding into the toilet.

But, then again, I should out myself as being in the Synbad school of believing ultimately that re-signing Whitnall was a dodgy decision. In principle it was good... but where can we play him, without stealing game time from our young forwards or young defenders??

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Best thing for Carlton is to play Whitnall either loose in defence or closer to goal on the 3rd tall. T-bird at CHB and encourage the run, and put someone like Hartlett or Bower at FB and chuck him into the deep-end ala Dawson. If they sink go with Livo or Saddington and cross our fingers

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Thought TBird had got some form back this year until the Richmond game. Then it was back to dummy spitting for poor old Bret.

IMO TBird should back himself a bit more and go for the ball and not focus too much on his opponent. Afraid to take a risk is he.

well yeah, so really the decision to re-sign whits is your prob, evertything else is splatterings.

It was hoped T-Bird would be a running defender. it seemed he would be at training but maybe (I mean if we are going to grab any straws lets at least look at them all) in a match game his temperament is not the free flowing defender we all hoped for. maybe he is naturally a stopper, not one to freely leave his man because he cannot handle the consequences if his man then gets the ball. In circus terms he is a tightrope walker not a juggler. Nothing wrong with that, except for the audience that wants jugglers only.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I think you can be a stopper and a play-maker, look at Leo Barry for example. He always takes the best forward but also has the confidence and support to play off him.

I'm thinking that perhaps Thornton has the potential to be a similar player but not until he gets a chop out from the midfield (and a to a lesser extent his fellow backmen). At the moment the Carlton backline is always under siege due to lack of pressure up the ground.

My view is that Thornton isnt big enough for a KP especially FB or CHB and doesnt have the athletic ability say of a Chad Cornes to make up for it.....
We tortured the poor kid early and gave him all the key defensive jobs which he did very well but it all became too much in the end and he lost form and I think also lost interest.
Ideally he should play on the third tall which would probably tie in with Tyrants remarks about him being allowed more licence to be a more attacking and a creative player....

Saddington is also a third tall defender leaving really only Livo as a genuine FB prospect and Hartlett as the gorilla tamer in waiting who has to play on the big CHF's.
Bower is another 3rd tall defender who offers some run and creative work but dont think he is a KPP....more of a Daryl White type...

I dont get what we are doing with Livo and dont understand why he is out of the team when he should be playing ......the long term plan for our defense isnt clear to me at all and looks more like a fire fighting exercise from week to week.......

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slow_mo.... I reckon Barry is a good comparison... but I don't think we see quite so much of the Barry pizzazz these days (when he is only a stopper) than the good old days where he'd take people on. Similar to T-bird.

danny.......... just personal opinion, but I don't think Thornton IS a stopper by nature. I agree in part with Elwood that he is a bit small for it long-term (but not too bad), but disagree that it was wrong to play him as a gorilla in his first few seasons.. he did quite well and it was a learning experience... in fact, I think Pagan should take the same approach with one of our other young defenders.

But I don't think you need to be a gorilla to play CHB.... history is littered with guys who played on Gorillas who went their size.... you need to be able to read the play and create it the other way... AND you need to be a brilliant almost midfielder-esque athlete to play on the greats. Thats the role I see Thornton starring at. For mine, thats the position he was born to play.

Now, the Whitnall issue complicates it because were do you play him? Do you put him in defence in Thornton's spot? (hindering his development) Up forward hindering Waite/Fisher and Kennedy? Or do you play Lance as your 3rd key defender, put Thornton where he will grow for the side, and manufacture a fullback through a kid (like Hartlett or Bower), or just go with Livo and cross your fingers???

I agree completely with Elwood that there is no vision for our key defensive spots... ZERO plan, ZERO development and ZERO idea (I said the same thing in another thread about the WHOLE team and structure).

And the guy who suffers most from this total lack of vision is Thornton.... our only known decent key-defender.

If the proposed offer of pick 12 from Melbourne for Whitnall was accurate (and, its a big IF, I admit).... we were mad not to take it... even with Whitnall's current form. Pick 12 we could have had Nathan Jones or Shannon Hurn, and BOTH would get a game with us right now... if Pagan had vision with our KPs we would have development-structure for our key backs and forwards, and another young go-getter in the midfield. Hurn would be an awesome addition to a list craving midfielders/defenders who can kick.

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Slow mo the backline is under seige because that where we choose to play the game. There is no one up feild to put pressure on the guy delivering the ball as we are filling in holes in the defence . At times guys like Betts are chasing three of four players down trying to put the pressure on .

The flood although quite effective in slowing the opposition down can also be very taxing on the players . To use it to good effect you need to use your bench -we dont . So in the end the ball eventually finds its targetted player an Thorton throws his head back in discuss and looks like a tosser when really the guy up feild has run his arse off .

Thorton needs Livo - He also needs some kicking practice because his delivery by foot at times is terrible

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Thats true... another key problem of ours is completely unaccoutable midfielders like Kouta, Stevens and Scotland. You can suffer one in a midfield (that would be Stevens) but more than that kills us. We would be better with a well drilled young midfield that play man on man. Playing one of our more accountable and stoppage-talented midfielders (Carrazzo) on the forward line is a waste in such a poor side. Bentick, Carrazzo and someone else (Murphy?? Betts??? Blackwell??? Smith???) should be our main stoppage players who are well drilled in being accountable for someone. Let Stevens run and create, but limit the effectiveness of his team mates. Having a midfield of Kouta, Stevens and Scotland crucifies a young defence

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He's nothing more than a good ordinary player IMHO. Never realy rated him.

or it could be that, of course

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On a purely statistcal basis the backline this year has conceded 446 points after 5 rounds and ranked in the top 8 in the competition compared to 551 points at the same time last year. Why has it improved?
A combination of reasons in Lance, Walker and the gameplan. Thornton needs those two guys more than Livo. Livo is fighting with Saddington for his spot. Whether Thornton is better off with Livo or Saddington is the question.
In relation to Thornton's kicking, generally he is a fine kick but sometimes he holds onto the ball too long coming out of defence instead of going for the first option. Look at Walker run out of defence, he is fast he runs the lines, watch Thornton come out of defence he just lopes along which gives guys up the ground time to cover their man.

no doubting what you've written in your other posts on Thornton re: midfield defensive pressure, but by the same token, I've never understood why people on this forum have salivated over him the last 3 years. All I see is a tryer who barely cuts it. I realise that we have a darth of skilled tall defenders, but the boy is only OK in my book. I'm sorry if I have offended anyone, but thats about as high as I can rate the boy.

I actually reckon Thornton is a natural forward. I reckon playing Thornton up forward we'd see the best of him... but that's only a "hunch" based on his movements and the way he reads the play

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He actually lined up on the half fwd line for a brief period on Friday

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Seriously, I would give Thornton a shot up forward some time this year (if Whitnall is clogging his position), and Fisher a role in defence. Another thing I don't like about Pagan is he typecasts players as forwards or defenders.. or as purely run with players.

There's no reason why a player with awesome hands, an awesome leap and a good read of the play (Fisher) couldn't prosper in defence

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So has Pagan typecast Whitnall as a forward or defender? Simmo played mostly HBF on Friday night not on the wing, McLaren spent most of the time in the backline and not in the ruck. If Thornton can't make it in the backline he should be put on the trade table at the end of the year. Fevola, Fisher, Waite and hopefully Kennedy come way before him as a forward.
Backline or bust.

What shits me most about Thornton is the way he looks back and searches for anyone else to blame when his opponent takes a mark. Poor leadership from one of our (shudder) more experienced players.

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