Sheedy tore strips of the Bombers in front of the media & supporters after their gallant loss to Haw.

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#DonTheStash

Interesting point that, I remember reading Rick Charlesworth's book, The Coach (or something like that) and his major philosphy was to train at a higher intensity in training than in a game, because with the added pressure of a game, he felt that it was the best way to maintain high standards during a match.

Isn't that the same principle as running with a car tyre around the waist at training? ......or pulling the parachute behind you? ....so that running unencumbered feels easy?

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

did he? did he really? or was he acting? apparently young men nowadays can spot that you know.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

In this context, no. He was talking more about drills and skills IIRC.

Quite like that philosophy. I feel we as a club lack intensity on and off the field. The board appears to lack urgency, the players seem to be waltzing around the ground like prima donnas - are they breaking out in a sweat? where's the chasing, harrassing, shepherding, etc ok we lack skills but what's happened to the 1%'s? Pagan's after match comments are repeats of the previous weeks after match comments. Rip into your players Pagan, do something for goodness sakes!

Ric Charlesworth or someone with his technical training/background/philosophy is just the person we need at this club as Director of Coaching/OnField Performance, if that means giving Pagan the arse so be it.

The days of the "Meat & Potatoes" or "Curried Sausages" Coach is over.

Time for 21st Century thinking and ideas.

We got 1000 members donating $1000 each to get John Elliott's name off his stand and renaming it the Heroes Stand - and giving them Hero Status.

If we get 1000 members donating $1000 each to payout out Denis Pagan's contract - we should call them absolute @#$%&! LIVING LEGENDS.

I'm in for $1000 who is with me.






Just dont tell Mrs Agro.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Freo's experiment with adding Ric to the coaching panel didn't work too well though. I don't think it can work without being the head coach, otherwise it isn't a core belief of the head coach.

If he was brought on board at a different level to Denis, he could just pick and choose what he liked. If he came on at the same level there would be clashes.

Like I said the day of the Meat & Potatoes Coach is over. The person I would envisage taking on the role of Director of Coaching would have the entire Coaching Staff (including Head Coach) answerable to him.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Duke..... We're not saying we should steal the Crows' game plan. This not about the Crows or Neil Craig as much as it is a "winds of change" and a "21st century attitude to coaching" thing.

Of course Adelaide could kick our arses... everyone does. But how do they go against St.Kilda or Geelong or West Coast? GOOD teams. They are competitive and often winners. How did they go in the last year under Ayres with a very similar list? not quite so well.

Craig has developed a lot of players on that list... players who have risen from obscurity. There are few Pagan success stories on the list, and more, in-fact, who have declined under him or appear to be in stasis. The team has not improved an iota under Pagan, and our results are clear testimony to this. We've seen favourites come and favourites go. He inherited a club on the bottom of the ladder and we're now still the worst club in the league by a long way. There is no sense of building, other than playing the odd kid while others flounder in the reserves.

There is just no clear process in place for our development as a team. Every year the same garbage set-ups, the same garbage players and the same excuses.

sorry to borrow a Thomas-ism, but its "Process"... whats Pagan's plan??? What's Clarkson's plan? Another crap club with draft picks galore and some questionably motivated senior players...... Hawthorn fans have their expectations set, their players have their expectations set, and they can all travel to the same destination.

We have none. We have mixed messages. The players have mixed messages. The BOARD give mixed messages. Are we trying to win or building for the future??? How did we re-sign Whitnall then?? Why did we trash Fevola's character and then be forced to keep him and pretend everyone's happy? Why did we treat Lappin like dirt and then thank christ we kept him???

New Age coaches have processes. I don't actually think St.Kilda's process is all that compelling, but there's still one in place. Adelaide's is clear. Hawthorn's is clear. What's ours?

What are Pagan's goals? How will be improve? Whats the cocktail for improvement?? We have no ideas about these things, and we can't read them from the side he picks or their performance. You could set your watch to the Adelaide play-book..... With Pagan's you're looknig at a sundail that only works if the weather is right

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Love Cricket? Love me

What are your expectations for a coach?

IMHO The ideal coach should identify and implement a philosophy which suits the circumstances of the club and be consistent with it.
There are varying interested parties with varying agendas but a strong coach will stick to his guns.

In my opinion, a development coach is our perfect fit.
Wins are nice and consistent form from senior players is great but development and education of our kids is crucial.

I fear our kids have been severely compromised in their development.
The right to make decisions, be creative and exposed to a multi facetted game style walked out the door the day Pagan walked in.

In his first pre season, Pagan totally reprogrammed the players to play a "direct, efficient, collision brand of football"
If a player changed direction in the backline, he stopped them, if a player handballed outside the corridor to a running player, he stopped them. If a player kicked short to a leading forward, he stopped them.
He removed any decision making from the players.

For the first 2 years we played a regimented, low possession game of football that intentionally stifled creativity.

We are now suffering the consequences.
Pagan has finally realised that a significant change of gamestyle is required but the players are not conditioned to adapt.
They struggle with decision making. They lack creative impulses.
You cant stifle a players offensive development and then flick it on a like a light switch.

We bemoan our kick out strategies. We get frustrated when players make foolish decisions.
Where is the development?

Go watch our players train. They are totally restructuring a game style which they had drummed in to them for 2 years.
Whilst we are totally restructuring, other teams are fine tuning.
We spend little time on kick outs and set plays.
We're too busy trying to catch up with the basics.

When we do work on set plays, we are trying to devise our own kickouts. We dont have time to structure up for our opponents kickouts.
There isnt enough time.

This stuff should have been part of their development since 2003.
Instead we have totally reprogrammed the way our players think and play football and then tried to change them back.
There"s been no opportunity to work on any intricacies.

I know we have parents of players who read this site and I dont mean to offend but if my son played for Carlton, I'd be filthy.
As far as I'm concerned, his development has been compromised and stunted.
Whilst Adam Cooney is immersing himself in the encyclopedia of football, our youngsters are being offered the cat in the hat.

Our training is second rate. It has nothing to do with facilities. It's about intellectual stimulation.
Denis Pagan does drills with 6 backs playing on 6 forwards.
How often does that happen in a game?
Watch Barry Mitchell train the Bullants and 4 backs play on 2 forwards. The midfielders are required to improvise, think their way through an adverse situation and make decisions.
Can they spot a forward who is outnumbered? Can those forwards make space for each other?
That is indicative of true match conditions.
That is development.

Development is about making the most of the time available. Offering as much relevant information to players to accelerate their development.
The damage to our players isnt just about today. It's not about yesterday.
It's about realising how much development our players are missing and preventing it happening tomorrow.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I understand that but; my point is still valid.

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

BV...I would take that as an endorsement for Barry Mitchell to be the next coach of Carlton and the game has gone past Denis Pagan and he is finished as an AFL senior coach?

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Brilliant post BV..... one of the best ever

It was the full irish stew version of my boiling water explanation about development and plan.

I hope tommi reads that and is ready with a well placed "EVA"

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Love Cricket? Love me

Not so much an endorsement for Barry Mitchell, Elwood.
I rate him highly but Pagan is my big concern.

I've kept pretty quiet on this as I gave my thoughts before the season and was branded a "Pagan Hater".
I'd like nothing better than for Pagan to succeed but it was never going to happen.

Interestingly I did a search on TBV from 3 years ago when we had a similar conversation.

http://www.theblueview.org/phpboard/vie ... 49&start=0

If a nobody like me could see our development being stifled then, surely our board must have had major concerns?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

BV have you ever thought about coaching

Brilliant post

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

You paint a very worrying picture BV. Great post.

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There's so much I could say...

I am absolutely sick of saying this, but the fact remains that the teams you have mentioned have been recruiting players before, during and after our penalties came into place. We have only been doing it for 2 years.

Of course we still think we aren't improving because all the teams that recruited in 02/03 - those players are developing NOW. We got nothing which = NO IMPROVEMENT now in comparison to the rest of the competition.

Of course you're going to get shit fighting in the system with a team that's flat broke and fighting with 2 hands tied behind their backs. A losing culture is bound to create tensions in any organization, let alone a sporting one. As soon as you get wins on the board - everyone will be happy. I don't remember seeing this thread active after round 1.

How do we get those wins on the board? We recruit a team structure that will serve us for years to come. We still put a very young squad on the park every week, probably the youngest in the comp each week.

You can change the coach now, have a 4 week honeymoon period and finish the year with the same players on the list. Next year they come back bigger and stronger and everybody says what a great job the new coach has done. It's like taking the credit for the sun coming up.

I don't always beleive DP does the right thing, I ripped my hair out when Lance was put, and left on Richo on Friday - but overall we have to let him finish this year and see if we have made progress at all.

Some quick stats regards the Crows v Blues from the teams we fielded in R1

25+
AC - 13
CB - 8

20-25
AC - 7
CB - 11

18/19
AC - 2
CB - 3

When you have a team that is as developed as that you can afford to try techniques where you run them hard and concerntrate on endurance - our blokes are on the 'meat and potatoes' formula of growing up.

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end of message

So tell me, BV, what should Brisbane do? I haven't seen much of their season so far, but should they play the short possession game and flood at all costs that didn't win them any flags since 2001?

They have basically the same structure they had 2 years ago with arguably the best CHF in the comp - where are they going wrong? Would they win more games with the modern gameplan? Shoild they sack their coach because he's lost the players?

At the beginnig, middle and end of the day it's all about the quality of player you put on the park each week and their ability to run out a game, and season - that'll do it every time.

I dunno That's what I reckon.

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end of message

I reckon you're wrong.
The way the game is played currently is devised to beat Brisbane.
Brisbane played a floating zone which set up 40-60 metres defensive side of the play.
They would hold up the player on the mark, flood back and set their zone up the field.

I wrote some stuff on this 2 years ago on TBV

http://www.theblueview.org/phpboard/vie ... juggernaut

Sydney devised their gameplan to beat Brisbane.
They refused to kick to the contest and controlled the play.
Many coaches thought this method was successful but couldnt win a grand final.
They were wrong.

St Kilda are suffering for the same reason.
They modelled their game on Brisbane and are suffering accordingly.

Just because something worked for Brisbane in 2003, doesnt mean it will work today.
Coaches devise tactics to beat dominant sides and have no doubt, someone will come up with something to defeat the current trend.

Football evolves, Duke.
Only fools refuse to evolve with it.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.