Denis's coaching style has been questioned by some senoir players and with warrant. We all know Denis is a tough character and not affraid to let you know how he feels no matter where or when. So for instance, just say Jordan Russel makes 2 costly errors before 3 quarter time, there is no to rip into the boy after the game especially when you know he would be down on himself and realises he messed up. Now thats what Denis did and does to many and can get very personal indeed, the better way to go about it is during the week pull the kid aside once all emotions have settled discuss the issue and talk through it. You can tell the boy just settle but no need to tear the kid apart.

Hmmmf, when I was a boy...................

But seriously, let's see how affective this style is.

Can the Dogs go all the way with the running game(I think not), or will Adelaide shut down, stiffle and restrict their way to success(possible)? Will Kosi come back and take the aints to the big one(IF they all stay fit, this is the most likely)? Will a dark horse grab the cup ala swannies 2005?

Stay tuned, one thing is for sure, we won't have any say what so ever .

_________________
end of message

Blue Vain.....your "expectations" post was a great post.

_________________
No ones listening till you make a mistake.

BV, the next step in the evolution of the game will be very interesting.... you almost expect it may swing back to the 1 on 1 to prevent the chip, and then, obviously result in the long kick to a contest regaining some popularity. If so, teams built on physical attributes needed for contests (ie, speed, height, strength) and precision and smarts will prosper. That is very much (from my understanding) the kind of game that Adelaide play.

That kind of game-plan I think Carlton will be able to suit in a few years time... we have some very tall and very athletic targets across all lines, and many with very strong hands... we also have a lot of pace coming through.

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me

Exactly, Tyrant. But one thing you can't fast-track in todays game is experience and growth - it requires patience.

In '95 we were described as the 'Hockey Blues" because of the way we shut down the opposition, created a skill error and spread and ran followed by long kicks inside the F50 - this style is not dead, we can make it work when we have the players with the appropriate physique and skill.

_________________
end of message

great post Bv even if I do disagree.

The worring thing in all this for me is the creativity aspect, if you are right there (and I am not convinced) then I would agree Denis is not the right man.

Great sides have the ability to create things out of nothing. And in this day and age you need a side that can think on its feet (back to the Crows discussion, this is a strength I theirs).

If Denis is stifling this then he really is ruining development.

the question is, is he?

One of the best methods for teaching creativity (in writing, in painting, in acting, etc) is to teach the absolute basics absolutely.

examples. A mate of mine that is one of the best set painters going around (accoridn g to the industry) first did 3 years of mixing paints - nothing else. And so on through all stages. Get the basics right was drummed into him over and over. Then move on.

Acting - the way i was taught was to get fixed with a set number of positions, a set number of rythmns (won't go in to specifics except as an example - 123 beats per minuet = panic) learn them over and over, drill them into your body day after day (I did 5 days a week for 2 years on this stuff - ahh the days of great Govt. grants) then move away from them but always you have them to fall back on when in the moment of performing, you are stuck.

Seems to me it may be Denis has done a similar thing. two years of absolute basics. Now let the leash out. True? How the @#$%&! would i know. But it is as valid an observation as BV's because like BV's its based on what I've seen - and statements also like DOA's comment about what his son said about this year. I cannot get away from the style we played in the Whizz Fizz. It seemed to me we were creative. yes the opponents may have let us be, so what? We were.

if however BV is right, and I hope those in the club with any brains are discussing this then Denis is not the right man at all. We must develop the creative side to our kids. But there are many ways to do this.

If Denis is doing it his way, fine.

If he is not doing it at all - @#$%&!!

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Agree to a point Dukes.... the difference is that you need to have players who can cope in a variety of situations and who are confident enough to make the play where needed. That will come with experience, of course

but the role of development is to fast-track experience, and bring it out sooner... because once you start displaying certain skills in a real life AFL situation THATS when you start growing as a player. Its when you apply skills that the learning cycle is complete.... the problem we have with Pagan (or me, at least) is that THAT development is a shambles with no apparent rhyme or reason.

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me

And when Voss, Aka, Lappin etc won their first flag they were 25/26 years old. That's how long it took for those players to develop into a brutal force. We thought they'd be around for years as we did with Essendon* Then the next generation comes through and you start again. We're never going to be a threat while we have a vast majority of our team under 24.

_________________
end of message

dannyboy..... you're right.... you've got to know the fundamentals well enough to be able to execute them in ambiguity. Thats how you can show you've truly "learnt" well enough to be effective in anything: in a footy match, in business, in anything.. being able to execute skills in ambiguity... including incorporating your creativity into the package.

The best learning is a combination of theory, execution in controlled environments (like case studies.. or certain training drills in this sense), and trial and error on the park. One thing that strikes me is that every player is on a different regime.... and they often seem to be in only one environment. Ie, they're only getting a chance to execute a few skills and rarely others. Not all... but most. And some are chosen ahead of others, and it seems very arbitrary (ie, DeLuca).

A development coach would only pick a kid in the team if there was a regime in mind? Why pick O'hAilpin and give him 1 qtr before dropping him? Why has Carrazzo played every position while Simpson has only played forward of the ball??

"Different types of players.... therefore, different regimes".... fair enough..... but why do some get a charmed run and not others?? If you take young players off for errors, how can they learn???

there are too many questions dannyboy and not enough answers. I can only assume his approach to development is selective and haphazard at ebst

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me

That group played in a pre-lim in 96 and dropped off after that before coming back up....... the Brisbane of the late 90s is good example of the effect on performances on a coach "losing his players"

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me

This thread is rooted, but this little-dipper is the most rooted.

Easily the longest post I've seen BV make, and I thank him for providing some logical points to the anti-Pagan campaign. I do agree that our training is starting to look like it's on the way side in terms of methods and current thinking. I also agree that our match simulation is very poor.

Do I feel Denis has changed the game plan because others have told him to? No, I'm more with the Dannyboy argument of seeing no hope in playing an uncontested brand of footy with young bodies, as they will never develop and never be tested.

Look how physical our side has become, how we compete pretty well for pace, how strong bodied our blokes are. Now we're developing decision making and foot skills due to a game plan change. Hell of a coincidence.

Perhaps Pagan plays 6 on 6 in match sim to encourage the defenders to make mismatches and forwards to work their way through them. Perhaps it's a significant oversight on his part. Very few on this forum would know, and very few of them would divulge such information.

I do strongly disagree on one front, and that is development of players. It's a hit miss sort of industry in regards to development of youth because every kid is different but I can't fault the majority of our young players, I would most certainly suggest that Walker is now on par with Cooney save for disposal skills and seeing how his natural kick is a right foot one but from a left hand leading the ball drop, I would suggest he has always been behind Adam.

Adam was physically far more developed than Andrew and this showed. Two seasons later and you'd have either one in your 22, with Andrew in a richer vein of form at the moment.

I could go for a while, but those are the main points I wanted to talk about.

na eade's stuffed Cooney up comepletely, the kid's going backwards - just ask SB - no wait, that's only if it's Pagan.....

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Struggling a little bit at the moment with the bulldogs gameplan and there quick movement of the ball - doesn't suit him

Reminds me a lot of Lance when he was young

I am sure he will adjust - he was terrific last year

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

you mean Eade's gameplan doesn't suit one of his stars!!!!! But aren't we supposed to devise a gameplan that matchs our strengths????

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Development being hit and miss is the Pagan way.... too many variables... won't care... make a half-arsed effort without any apparent planning.

You can't fault our kids for trying hard in a shit team..... but because its hard to conceive of how good player X could be in X context, it doesn't mean everything is good or perfect....

its that X factor in coaching that Pagan just isn't showing anymore. He's reactive, displays little or haphazard player development coaching....

SYDNEY BLUE...... COONEY REMINDS YOU OF LANCE??? COONEY IS A BLOODY RACEHORSE AND LANCE HAS ALWAYS BEEN AS FAST AS THE QUICKEST GLACIER.

Cooney's as quick as any player on the bulldogs list! I think you must be confusing him with Matthew Croft

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me

Yes danny eades gameplan doesnt suit ONE of his stars - Not the whole bloody team.

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

He might well be but he still reminds me of Lance - It that boy in a mans body thingy

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

so Eade should trade Cooney, get a pick and choose someone who suits his gameplan?

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

maybe you get them confused because they're both pale red-heads that are dog-ugly

_________________
Love Cricket? Love me