By the way I was serious about this.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Sporn has never really recovered from that bone bruising injury he had a while ago, he actually twisted his bone in his lower leg, very nasty stuff. Really took a notch of reasonable pace. He could still be retained for another year.

Wiggins is a forward IMO, but his decision making is awful, he gets away with in the VFL, you watch him spot an option, then look at another option he sees, then another option, then he breaks a tackle and kicks to the fourth option.

Very poor and he gets found out about it at AFL level. But he too could be retained another year.

Davies has had the most chances, has had plugs in the midfield and has looked barely average. He finds a way to do the impossible, but then manages to stuff up the mind-numbingly simple, even in the VFL. He was drafted rated with some of the best hands outside the top 10 in the national draft and was also rated as an inside mid with a very creative handball. He has been soft and outside at VFL level displaying some natural talent in congestion and stoppages without actually capitalising on it.

So in conclusion:

An injury crueled utility who was picked a lot earlier than he should have been (Sporn) who displays lack lustre pace as a result.

A forward/utility who has very little in the way of football brain, fantastic hands and work rate and reasonable skills and still has a chance.

A naturally talented footballer who has demonstrated sweet @#$%&! all work ethic on the field and resultantly duds himself.

Sporn's injury is not Pagan's fault.
Wiggins lacking decision is not Pagan's fault but he can help him gain some.
Davies is about as much Pagan's fault as Norman. Same thing but he's not morally wayward.

They have all been given what they have been allowed (in Sporn's case) and deserved (in other cases).

Sure, take the million and give it to the club. They won't be daft enough to remove Pagan on a whim and we can use the money.

I would think that is unlikely to happen. Pagan bought in retreads to combat the draft penalties...at the time he felt his hands were tied and had a philosophy of needing 'big bodies' around the football. It was also at the time when Brisbane were dominant so the trend was to try and have a list that could compete physically...the perception is that there was more contested footy then (Jar may be able to get the stats to see if that was the case).

This year Denis appears to be putting more faith in youth. Not all youth at once, but Murphy, Walker, Simpson, Bentick, Betts, Carrazzo and Russell are getting a good run. I would suggest that Hartlett would have been in calculations before his injury. We're hearing that Kennedy will be in the side soon...so it would be fair to presume that Bower would also be in line for a run sooner rather than later.

It may not be the all or nothing approach that you have been advocating but there is clear signs that in 2006 the time is now to have a look at the kids. I would guess with each loss, this practice wioll gain even more momentum.

This is a thread about telling Denis its time to move on not a critique on how good or bad our recruiting and player development has been, arguing the merits of Livingstone, Sporn, Wiggins and Davies is micro-economics and very unimportant in the greater scheme of things.

There is a ground swell of support from members to remove Denis from the job because it is thought he is not the right man to take us forward.

The main argument against it is it will cost the club too much to pay out the rest of his contract.

What I am suggesting by way of raising money from the members to pay out his contract offers just as great if not greater benefit to the club than retiring $1,000,000 of debt.

The money will not be given to the club for any other purpose other than to payout Denis Pagan's contract.

This is to do with the long term future of this football club by installing some vision and radical and fresh thinking into the Football Department - something that is sadly lacking at the moment.

In years to come people may view it in far more positive terms than merely changing the signage on the old "John Elliott Stand" to "Carlton Heroes Stand."

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Agro that's fine, go for it. Meanwhile if people raise issues to support your call for the $1000 I'll argue back. Or is this thread only for those who wish to get rid of Denis?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

It might be an acorn at the moment but you have to start somewhere.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Good luck - actually I don't even mean that - if this got up then I think I'd probably give the club away as a joke.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

The problem with Denis is after three years there is no faith.
And it will be four years after this year....no results... just a bad spirit around the club.

There is nowhere worse to be than at a club with its psyche murdered..

were getting there.

Time for a change no matter what it costs.

Another couple of years of this and were gone!!!

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

So AGRO, if Denis renews your faith sometime between now and when you hit the 1 million mark, what do you do then?

If anyone was going to raise money for the CFC, why would they found it on such a bitter cause? Are you saying you'd only help out the club like that when they're completely up shit creek?

This thread is about people who are baying for blood because they don't like what they see, guess what: happens every day. The more the argument is rationalised the more it is shown that we have absolutely no idea either way and that this is just two lots of hopers and dreamers.

One funny thing I've read just now is:


No matter what the cost? This is barrow pushing stuff, not necessarily genuine concern.

How about this: let's drop the witch hunt for twelve months. Pagan does the final big clean out, we finally have a real list and then we see what he does.

The club cant get by with trying to pull an iron out of the fire and seat of the pants stuff.

Its more than plucking a David Parkin from Hawthorn as we did in 1980 where we had a list, we just needed a man manager of his time and Parkin did this for us (twice).

Getting Pagan from North Melbourne might have been seen by Elliott as his final coup, his iron in the fire, but unfortunately for Pagan and us, Pagan is not the man for this job.

Its time for thinking outside the square - we have to move into the 21st Century - and we need visionary thinking to do it from the Board.

Maybe they should take a leaf from George Harris and the Carlton Board of 1964 where they sought out someone who for all intents and purposes was unattainable but was the best man for the job at the time ie. Ron Barassi.

I dont know who the Ron Barassi from 1964 is now in 2006, maybe its Michael Voss Im not sure, I probably think its someone like a Ric Charlesworth, not him just someone like him.

It has to be done and it has to be done soon.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Why is it bitter?
Have you ever thought it may be a positive for the club???


Like cutting out a cancer or something???

In 12 months this club will be dead... if somethings not done.

Sounds pretty OTT doesnt it???

buts its not..

We have a bunch of amateurs at every level.

The coach used to be a great coach but the world has changed.

Its time for gardening...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

What you're proposing is that there is a monumental level of incompetence on every level from coaching staff, to football department, to administration, to board.

Everyone who holds sway in those areas are riding the club into the ground if they are retaining a coach who has lost it.

That's what you're suggesting? If it was so dire, if it was so hopeless and so barren, we would sack him, regardless of the financial hit. If we were worried about this prior to signing him, we would have had some conditions in the contract or he never would have signed.

If you have concerns with people, you illustrate it to them and you give yourself some cover in your contractual dealings with them. That's common sense.

Pagan is unquestioned everywhere in the media, you talk of a dispirited club, they don't give a peep. They would be sniffing around like rabid dogs if there was anything, I mean this thread doesn't have 5000 hits because of Carlton fans. I'm not saying you have no idea, you clearly have some inside knowledge despite me once flogging you based on your football expertise, but I don't believe that you don't manipulate this from time to time.

There are no signs, there are no whispers, and history would suggest that everytime there has been a question of Pagan, he has answered the question. And through yourself, preacher and others it has been demonstrated that he likes to keep his cards close to his chest.

Even with the board reshuffle there has never been a mention of Pagan's job, save for Smorgon trying to make himself look like a visionary by claiming he whipped Denis into shape. What an absolute joke, much like the idea of our club rotting due to the bloke who has been helping dig us out of the hole. He earns every bloody penny.

The sooner he goes the better, the game has evolved and is evolving but he appears incapable of recognising that, and it seems had to be told to change.

The kick-in strategy (or lack of it, in terms of players just sticking to a static zone no matter what the opposition do) is a stark example of the deficiencies in flexibility and creatovoty, as BV has pointed out.

Despite the ladder position it is my belief that we are better off in 2006 than at any time since 2002. I think any move to sack Pagan is wrong, short-sighted, management overdrive and would have no tangible benefits.

Our list is much better for skill and hope and I want to see it come through. The transition from solid tryers in 2004 to skilled youth is happeneing, albeit a little later than I'd hope. Members are down but I believe Carlton fans are a spoiled lot (and with our history I dont blame them), and it will erbound. Our skills are down at the moment but if they were 5% better we may be 3 and 2 and this whole argument would be moot. People complain about heavy defensive tactics but Id argue you should watch other teams as well - its now endemic to the competition.

I am led to believe through a number of sources that the financial position is expected to be much better by the end of the year, without any specific handout from the AFL or increased dividend. yes, we're behind, but sacking a Premiership Coach wont make us in front. Our stability at times of trouble has been a real strength.

I love BV and Synbad's posts on this matter, no doubt, but think in the bigger picture we hold firm.

My fundamental view is that our lack of draft / recruiting succcess to 2002 made our list easily the worst in the competition, and it was going to take a long time to come back from that. We are doing that now. We gave too many second and third chances to tryers - this is my main criticism, and I hope come the end of 2006 this is rectified.

Other than the Richmond game I've been very happy with the endeavour, pace and heart of the boys. This lack of faith stuff is bullcrap and spouted as a reason for lack of composure, which will come. Kennedy in for De Luca and I'm happy witht he direction.

M

so we need to sack the coach

get a new president

get rid of the board

find new assistant coaches

a new captain

a new leadership group

anything else?

So apart from that are things going okay?



glad we are patient with this rebuilding stuff.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

molsey

I like your post and am with you all the way.

Yet, while i don't think 'sack' the coach is the solution, to question your post we had 22 clangers against Richmond and 20 the week before. The highest in the comp. That doesn't do wonders to inspire confidence that things are on the improve.

Do i have a solution? No, and that's why i am not involved in a football club. I stick to what i know and that is managing business.

I'll leave the solutions to the experts.

na LB, this is football, we're all experts.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

AGRO if I had it I would give you the lot

I am a simple man with simple logic I dont look for things that could or couldn't be happening but ever since our dreadful 2002 year I have looked at things a different way . To me in 2002 Brtiitain had a list that was ageing he also had a playing list that was struck by injuries . He also had the knowledge that he had 3 kids on his list that were taken in the top 20and was heading for picks 1 &2 in the draft. He adopted a game style that was not to disimilar to what we are playing today. He avoided the blowouts by flooding and maintaining possession.It was unattractive didn't win us games but stopped us from being flogged week in week out

In 2003 when Pagan took over he had the same list but injury free. He had one of the most unique situations that a AFL/VFL sides had ever been placed in that he could have used to rally the troops. That year we won 1 more game and towards the end of the year we were getting smashed and three of his more senoir players bailed out.

That in anyones simple language is not a sign of a good coach

We criticise Brittain for his performance in 2002 and yet given better situations and better circumstances in regards to the playing group . Pagan perfomed worse .

From that season on I have not seen anything or any reason as to why I should change my position on Denis . This notoin that the system is set up so that sides just have to sit back and wait for their youth to develop is a load of bulldust and team like Sydney and Adelaide are proving this while the model for this system ST kilda is watching their moment in the sun pass them by.

We are entering into the next three weeks after a 21 point win and 4 close losses and 90 % of the supporter base isn't thinking we are close to a good win they are thinking we are one game closer to a monumental hiding

3-4 years down the track from our worse season ever we are not performing any better - We have gone back to the style of play that we were playing then


We have to bite the bullet and make the decision now because IMHO if Pagan could not get the side up for 2003 there is no reasoning to suggest after completely turning over the playing list he can do it now.

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Given our lack of drafting between 1994 and 2001, and then the draft penalties, we were always going to need four, and maybe five solid drafts to get our list back into shape. Currently we have had two solid drafts, and a little bonus in that we got Fisher, Simpson, and Walker from the two drafts in which we suffered penalties. This year makes draft three. As for Pagan and coaching this list - the words sow's ear and purse still seem to be ringing home for me.