na LB, this is football, we're all experts.

What you're proposing is that there is a monumental level of incompetence on every level from coaching staff, to football department, to administration, to board.

Everyone who holds sway in those areas are riding the club into the ground if they are retaining a coach who has lost it.

That's what you're suggesting? If it was so dire, if it was so hopeless and so barren, we would sack him, regardless of the financial hit. If we were worried about this prior to signing him, we would have had some conditions in the contract or he never would have signed.

If you have concerns with people, you illustrate it to them and you give yourself some cover in your contractual dealings with them. That's common sense.

Pagan is unquestioned everywhere in the media, you talk of a dispirited club, they don't give a peep. They would be sniffing around like rabid dogs if there was anything, I mean this thread doesn't have 5000 hits because of Carlton fans. I'm not saying you have no idea, you clearly have some inside knowledge despite me once flogging you based on your football expertise, but I don't believe that you don't manipulate this from time to time.

There are no signs, there are no whispers, and history would suggest that everytime there has been a question of Pagan, he has answered the question. And through yourself, preacher and others it has been demonstrated that he likes to keep his cards close to his chest.

Even with the board reshuffle there has never been a mention of Pagan's job, save for Smorgon trying to make himself look like a visionary by claiming he whipped Denis into shape. What an absolute joke, much like the idea of our club rotting due to the bloke who has been helping dig us out of the hole. He earns every bloody penny.

a few things SB

Denis did not sack Brittian yet you seem to hold him responsible.

3 top picks. Again (sigh) so is part of your argument that Sporn, Wiggins and Livo have been ruined (for want of a better word) by Pagan?

Is Pagan responsible for Kouta's leg troubles, Ratten's injuries that led him to retire, SOS retiring, Macca retiring, McKernan's inability to play consistent football?

Are you of the mind we should have kept Murphy, Alan, Beaumont, Manton?

Do you disbelieve in the idea of rebuilding this list of ours?

Do you think another coach (or if the club had stuck with Brittain) would have had us playing finals football?

I ask these questions.. after almost 4 years do you reckon this playing group has any faith in the coach??
Whats the coach done to give them faith?

so we need to sack the coach

get a new president

get rid of the board

find new assistant coaches

a new captain

a new leadership group

anything else?

So apart from that are things going okay?



glad we are patient with this rebuilding stuff.

They're still there aren't they? So either they are behind the coach or they couldn't get a game elsewhere .

Ahhh, a snipers work is never done.

Who is sniping? and what do you know about human behaviour???

snip·er

One who shoots at other people from a concealed place.

Why do the media leave DP alone?

Because for all their faults, they understand that building the list up from below zero is going to take years, and years and you need someone who knows how to build a team rather than someone who can pinch hit a few sly games using fan-dangled methods.

Brisbane to re-build faster than us? Yes, they still had early picks in drafts of 02/03 and it's those players who are now developing.

It's not rocket science.

You once again offer condescending cheap shots.

In 12 months this club will be dead... if somethings not done.

Sounds pretty OTT doesnt it???

buts its not..

We have a bunch of amateurs at every level.

The coach used to be a great coach but the world has changed.

Its time for gardening...

mikkey..... I think your argument is fair and a good way of reading the situation. However, where you and I would differ (and, its a fundamental difference) is that I believe coaches are coaches FOR NOW, and not for life. I think you do have a narrow window in coaching that you either need to keep evolving in your methods to maintain, or you get left behind. Its totally possible that Lethal, Pagan and even Sheedy are now being left behind. Its a cruel business, but even a couple of bad trades, poor faith in player X or good faith in player Y, a rough draft or 2, and not succession planning for aging stars.... those things can kill you. And, when you're managing 40+ people who are frustrated, its hard to keep their motivation.... and losing them is the tell-tale sign.

I don't think its always right to go back on the past and say "so and so is a good coach... look, he won these premierships 5-10 years ago"..... Thats not to say that means he's a BAD coach..

... but coaching evolves, and if you don't evolve with it, the window of opportunity can be slammed in your face.

I am a simple man with simple logic ...