Gosh BV can you actually offer more then personal attacks?

I've got to say, Danny, without meaning to have a go at you... because you know we'll always have DeLuca..... .. but you're not really giving us any sugar here.

You're talking about "where's the facts?... its all opinions" as though there ARE facts that can substantiate the "Pagan is the right coach" contention... but you're not even really giving us your opinion as to why... only your opinion as to how we are wrong.

I'm not on a bandwagon, and I'm not trying to impress people by being part of some witch hunt.. I'm just trying to be objective.. and objectively, I reckon Pagan hasn't done himself any favours. I don't think he has clear plans for ALL our kids, I think his trading and drafting (bar stevens) has been atrocious, I think his team selections have been development stunting at best, and sometimes laughable at worst, and I don't have any faith in his ability to coach our young side..... I look at Hawthorn with complete envy. I look at Carlton and feel like crying.

"Rebuilding" is a journey. Like any journey, you need a map (ie, a plan). My problem with Pagan is that the map he's developed is so haphazard that he's not getting us from A-to-B in the quickest time. No where near it. If Parkin and the AFL put us 5 years behind the ball, its not right that we should take 10 years to reach there.

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Love Cricket? Love me

What do you base this on? Except for the year where we recuited the recycled players (and had no draft picks) to get rid of the dead wood we have recruited kids. And we are playing the kids. And the kids of 2-3 years experience (Simmo, Walker, ABm Fish) are now in the team every game and have improved a lot.

*tap, tap, tap* Is this thing on....hello.

Well thanks for the opprtunity.

My idea of building a football team from scratch is to firstly have first access to the best available talent in the land. After all, you can't put in place a plan until you see exactly what chess peices you have on the board.

Obviously a full board of pawns won't help us much, but the KP peices are the ones we are looking for.

In the mean time we need to stem the flow and damage as much as we possibly can so as not to be the worst team to ever set foot on an Australian football field.

I could go on and on but can't be stuffed, it's all be said before. The fact is that no-one can quantify the damage that was suffrerd all those years ago including the neglect of the playing list for many years.

You want a solution from me, I've given my opinion too many times, what have you offered apart form SACK THE COACH!! SACK LANCE WHITNALL!!

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Well actually I was posting thoughts and reasons why I believe Pagan isnt the right fit for us.
I offered examples and reasons.

Your initial post started with



What did you contribute to the discussion other than sarcasm?
You could of offered thoughts and rebuttals to refute my thoughts.

Instead you dismissed others with a view contrary to yours as "going for the easy way" and "taking the easy way of focussing your anger" to construct a view.

I thought your post was dismissive, sarcastic and offered nothing to the debate.

I want to discuss the value of Pagan to the club.
Give me examples of his contribution and what tactical value improvement we have seen initiated.

Make a valuable contribution to the thread.
Why am I wrong?
How has he been of value to the kids?
What improvements can you see?
Are they 3+ years worth of value?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

what do you base 5 years on - the experts said anywhere between 7 and 10.

I am happy with the development of Walker, Betts, Carrots, Simmo, AB, Scotland, Fisher, Murph (so far) Setanta, Aisake, Hartlett (injuries sadly keep getting in the way), Livo, JR and Kennedy is in for a run it seems this week (though will he make it?).

The rest I do not know enough about though it seems the club is happy with Flint and Jackson

Batson is showing stuff this year

French has become a far better ruckman than I hoped for (though I still want a great ruckman).

Pleased that Lance is proving me wrong. I have liked his season so far.

Still think we are short of talent but hope Bower, Edwards, Raso and some I've mentioned, step up.

Plus this year's draft (2 really, really goodies please).

I think denis is developing a strong list based on the performance of the kids (future) versus the performance of the vets. Also I think the edges of our talent has strengthened every year.

Do I think denis is perfect? No.

Equally do i think he is having a detrimental affect on this club or our players? No.

However i do think he is making judgements about players - i expect him to. He will not get all this judgements right - no one does. But I would be disgusted if he wasn't prepared to make them.

I still expect us to be poor this year yet showing signs (so far we have)
and next year to show further improvement. I can only judge denis against my expectations. he is not disappointing mer. I knew this list was shit, the penalties would set us back and we had no depth we coul;d ely upon to help us get through this time. We are almost like a new team being built from scratch (not really i know but its the best comparison i cvan think of given the list and penaltis he inherited)

I also believe you cannot speed up the ageing process and firmly believe that the single biggest problem we face each and every week on the field at the moment is our young age. Every developing club (Geelong, St Kilda, Brisbane ) went through this period.

the clubs that seem to avoid it have a core group of champions that carry the kids through their development (Crows, Bombers in the past, Ciollingwood perhaps) we do not have that core group.

I understand some of those who disagree with Denis's start at the club because they feel he got rid of our core group. they may be right but I accept there were reasons for it. if not, then he certainly erred that first year or two.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Every coach has their faults. Not sure anyone here is saying Pagan is the messiah, just that there are a lot of over the top anti-Pagan sentiments being expressed.

There are people here who want Pagan sacked mid-season.

I just do not agree with this.

Assess him at the end of the year.

Reasons against a mid-season sacking for me are:

a) finding a replacement, do we just go with Mitchell, what happens if whoever takes over has a honeymoon period and there are a host of excellent candidates at years end? It just muddies the waters and gets us worse draft picks than we otherwise would have.
b) what happens with the assistants do they get cleaned out too mid-season? If so where do we find replacements?
c) money (which is a huge factor for the club) are there 1 and a half or 2 and a half years left on his contract?
d) the marginal benefits/losses, will we be so much better off changing coaches mid-season? Who knows? It is pure speculation either way.

I think Pagan has done a good job overall and got most things right I do not think he is going to hold back the development of our kids in the next 17 games of football. I just do not see enough evidence for this.

I am happy with the development of the list and in some cases the development of players has exceeded my expectations.

This is all merely opinion just like everyone else here. Not one person in this thread has presented any rock solid facts that convince me that sacking Pagan mid-season will be good for the club.

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Well its good we have BV to lift the quality and standards of this forum.... all hail the master! I bow my head to your brilliance. Any more personal abuse you can dish out? It is so entertaining

But if there is no tangible improvement Danny, that is detrimental.
Players will physically progress and put on weight. They will increase muscle and hopefully increase their speed.

That is a result of natural development of the human body, having access to a strength and conditioning coach and weight rooms.

The coaches role is intellectual. His role is to feed them information.
To teach them how to react in varying situations.
How to react defensively and offensively at kickouts.
What their role is in zones and stoppages.
How to make the correct decisions instinctively when under pressure.
How to understand the tempo of games and how players can contribute to it and when that contribution should be made.
He should develop their decision making and have an awareness of their confidence levels and assess where they need development and understand what their limitations are.

Where do you think our players are there?

How are our kickouts? Offensively and defensively?
How is our decision making?
Do our players demonstrate an ability to control the tempo of play when our opposition have a run on?
Do we put the ball in the hands of the appropriate players following a kick out?

I'd suggest those areas are the role of the development coach.

I'd also suggest that we are a long way off the pace.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

the 5 years instead of 10 years are numbers I pulled from my bum. I doubt Robert Walls sat down with a pen and paper, looked at the form guide and agreed that 10 years was the magical time. He pulled that from his much-more-informed bum as well.

The years are irrelevant.. the point I've been making all along is that if you don't have solid plan to develop every player on the list (a contention that I have made and asserted 100 times in this thread and others) then you are LUCKY if you hit the mark within the natural timeframe.

Theres more too it than picking the kids and giving them games. Its a start, but its not the end. Its gameplan, its messages, its exposure to ambiguity, its learning a range of skills.....

I've used Wiggins Sporn and Davies as examples of poor development planning. NOT because I think they're good players Pagan has wasted, but because they are perfect examples of getting time and a sniff of development (ie, faith from the coaching group) before having it ripped away from them... now, that is bound to happen if the coaching staff decide they're not good enough... but if thats the case, why are they still on the list? How would those players have felt when Chambers and Longmuir were brought in to play in their approximate positions? How could they feel they're getting a fair go from the coaches?

In 2003 Pagan should have set in place a strategy for every player on the list. Wiggo, Sporn (injuries permitting) and Davies included. 3 seasons later they've yo-yoed in the side, had players recruited into their positions and are now near-certainties to be delisted.

Where's the planning? where's the development in them? What kind of strategic planning has gone into the GOOD players like Walker??? It makes you wonder.... and it rattles your faith in just what the coach is doing with the players who still have a future.

I can only assume that Pagan is rolling the dice on our young talent and there's not a lot of strategy behind it

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Love Cricket? Love me

If you cant contribute to the thread in an informed manner Mikkey, whats the point?
You've offered nothing more than your usual.

Give us something of value.
If you think Pagan is the man, give us reasons.
Give us constructive views.
Or go away.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

But Ty, how do you know there isn't a strategy? You are only guessing. You have not given good enough reasons to me for any evidence of no strategy. How can we possibly know what the individual development strategies are for our players. Even less plausibly how can it be stated there is no strategy?

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Tyrant, how do you know there are no plans in place? Take Walker - I am quite sure his "run with" roles on some of the best players in the comp last year were part of his development plan.

Hi Tyrant,

Surely you can do better than this. It is a fairly big assumption to make that a coach as experienced as Pagan is simply "rolling the dice" without a lot of strategy.

Somehow, I expect that there is a strategy, it may not be clear to those of us stuck behind a screen and keyboard, but I give Pagan a little more credit than that.

regards

Ockham

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

I agree Jar.
I'm not saying Pagan should be sacked mid season.
However I have said from day one that Pagan was not developing our players.
I have seen nothing to change my mind.

If I am wrong, I want people to give me reasons.
Why has it not been a mistake for Denis Pagan to be coaching the Carlton Football Club in 06?
What is he contributing.

Tell me what you expect from a development coach and tell me where Pagan has contributed.

You dont agree that Pagan is harming the development of our kids.
If he is offering less than they could be recieving elsewhere, he is impeding their development.
Standing still is going backward.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Hey Jerusa and Mikkey, are you two married or something .

You do make a good point though - both of you.......BOTH OF YOU!!

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Congratulations BV - I did not know you now owned TC. Anymore unfounded personal attacks and judging of other posters worth? Well at least we have your brilliance and insights. All bow!

We started last, still last, a rabble, standing still, poor game plan, out of date coaching, no great player respect for the coach, who we pay a fortune, with a side I now believe is alot better than it is showing. I wonder about those who actually think we're going anywhere as a team (as distinct from individuals)

Enough there for you.

I repeat it starts at the top - we need to get the off field team right before we progress!

While it is not of the extreme Clarkson model IMO Pagan has only started coaching with a view to development since the start of 2005.

Development is such a subjective word though and is very difficult to manufacture a coherent debate between parties for that reason.

One fact is that we have had to develop our list from further back than any other team that I can remember and IMO the list has developed according to my expectations. Especially considering facilities Pagan has had at his disposal.

He has had to develop the worst list in living memory using some of the worst facilities at the disposal of any coach in the league.

But that is the past, what of the future?

We now have a list of young talent at our disposal what do we do in terms of development?

In my mind Pagan offers experience/discipline which can be great for developing young minds and bodies.

However, his weaknesses to me are his lack of flexibility and lack of modern day thinking.

If it were up to me (as the CFC Board) at the end of this season I would keep Pagan, but put the foot down and tell him we are completely restructuring the football department with an eye to development.

This means cutting Elshaugh and Liberatore and bringing in the best available assistant coaching talent.

Telling Pagan we will be using his strengths in the Football department, but taking away some of his power, maybe doing things like allowing an assistant coach to take match day responsibilities or sports scientists to take over training. We have got to take him out of his comfort zone.

Anyway, thats just me thinking aloud. It's probably rubbish, let me know.

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