I'm happy for Fev to drop his bundle soon as long as those predicting this can give me the Tatts numbers on Saturday night.

apparently they haven't been 'developed' yet

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I heard it's because Denis bought a quickpick and didn't take his time working his way through all the numbers...

EDIT: Spelt Denis' name wrong

I heard he picked up a used ticket and tried to pass that off as the real thing

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Why would I question jimmae's IQ when he's actually agreeing completely with what I said.... he drops his rag because he's played out of position.... I agree completely with you jimmae!!! I said the same thing a few pages back!

I'd be fed up too if I was in his shoes.... week after week of being anchored to the fullback line.... will he ever get a chance to grow into a more constructive player??? Is there any real hope for our midfield???

Jimmae, I don't think you were objecting to me at all mate... if I misread your post and there is a hidden barb there, please point it out to me!

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Love Cricket? Love me

Again danny, I don't want to sound like a broken record, but you've picked up the surface of the argument and warped it while completely missed the message.

Talking abour gut feelings vs fact is a ludicrous tangent because of course this is all based on how each of us as perceived the situation. We haven't even got into the facts of how many games we've won under Denis, and how we're staring down our 3rd spoon in 5 years. If you want to go to the "facts" they're hardly an endorsement for Pagan, Danny....

... but the REAL agenda I've been pushing is about planning and development. We SHOULD be into our 4th year of a 5 year plan by now. ARe we??? Can we see any evidence of it??? I use the example of Wiggins et.al to talk about PLANNING (or DEVELOPMENT PLANNING, if you will)..... Pagan's development plan isn't clear to anyone (and, I suspect, not even the players... if it even exists!) he might have spot-plans for some players (like playing Walker on the ball last year and at half-back this year...) but is there one for every player?

Dannyboy, unless you're an mathematical genius who can model an equation out of seemingly unrelated variables, I can't see how anyone could infer a "grand plan" out of what we're seeing on the park, on the trade table or in the draft..... and, I can only ASSUME that he has none... high level stuff maybe, but no plan for every asset on the list... and THATS fundamentally poor coaching for a team as young and shit as ours.

Compare with Clarkson. Not outputs, but messages to the media and selection/trading policies? No one is under any doubt what his plan is... and at least Hawthorn fans won't die wondering whether or not Zac Dawson will make it at the top grade.

And, if you want to go back to the FACTS, lets have this discussion abuot how great Pagan is at the end of the season. How many spoons do we have to lose before we realise that we can't keep making excuses about Parko/Brits/the AFL.

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Love Cricket? Love me

The Hawthorn Board decided to go the youth way. fully.

Did our Board? If not then why is this the coach's fault?

Do you think our list is not developing?

You have stated your belief that you'd play the kids and not worry about shellackings because that won't hurt them? What have you based this opinion on?

Clarkson certainly dosn't agree with you. earlier this year he stated that he had been wrong to play so many kids without mature bodies to support them, (especially he felt in the forward line, Franklin was one he mentioned as having been over-exposed by the club without support around him) he thinks he's getting the balance better this year. Sound familiar? (course we could suspect that Hawthorn deliberately played the kids not for development but for more early picks, I'll call this the Synbad development strategy).

Now Carlton could have gone this way - certainly, I know its the way many on TC wanted. Play the kids get the draft picks and start trying win win only after you have a great list in place. But for that to happen it must be the board, the president and the coach aiming for this. Without the board and the president the coach would never go down this path because it would certainly cost him his job and I have no problems with Pagan trying to protect his career.

I just do not get the angst directd at Denis. Is he the right man? I think so, but its just an opinion, and I can see how others worry about things like kickouts/training/match day, no one ever gets them all right but with a weak team the mistakes become obvious.

No club I can think of has ruined its youth by having the wrong coach to the point where those players never recovered by the introduction of a new coach. Yet this seems to be the implication being levelled at Denis Pagan, that somehow he is ruining our kids. I think this is farcical.

A culture can, perhaps, ruin a team. That culture comes from the club, from the Board, from the coach. For all your concerns are you saying the culture at Carlton is rotten?

One thing is sure, most success stories (never all thank God for that) in sport are associated with money. Money buys innovation/facilities/assistants/technology etc. Crows have money. West Coast have money. We do not seem to have that.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Good answer Danny... and something I can actually engage in.

You're 100% right that the commitment to youth and development must come from every pocket of the club. If Denis has been cruelled by mixed messages from the board (and in all likelihood that may have happened), then he has been royally screwed by them and should be annoyed. But when a losing culture, a culture of fear and hedging is in place, something has to be done about it..... Best case scenario is, in my opinion, that Denis is sacrificed (doesn't sound nice, but its got to happen) and the board take a good look at themselves, learn from their mistake (in handling the coach) and make the right choice of a replacement.... and we get a replacement that understands the position we're in, and DEMANDS the time to achieve his goals.

I've said earlier in other threads that our whole culture is rooted (and I'm not alone there!). The board are AS responsible for than than anyone else. Unfortunately, footy is what it is and the coach is the mediator between the players (most important asset) and the board. sacrificing the mid-point and adjusting expectations is quicker and more efficient than changing the whole board and the playing list (an impossibility anyway)

Its a shame that its come to this.... but mistakes have been made with this club from day 1 of Pagan's tenure, right across every area of the club. It'll take a complete re-alignment of our priorities, AT every level of the club. Change management requires a clear agenda, a clear interim structure and every employee opting-in to the vision of the company's leaders. If your coach has to recant his practices and start preaching something from scratch, how can he inspire opt-in from the players? How can he inspire a player like Thornton without conceding errors in his original development plan?

We have a new president. We have (some) new board members. In 2007 we could easily lose 10 players and not miss their output. Everything is in place besides inspiring that opt-in from the 30 players who'll stay on the list. For that to happen, you need a new coach with a new philosophy, a clear agenda and a clear interim strategy. You're fighting up-hill if you use your existing managers who have magically changed their agenda overnight.

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Love Cricket? Love me

So you'd sack denis at the end of the year, interview everyone and appint a new coach with the full support fo the board to impliment a youth policy, give the new coach 2 years to start turning us around and in 2009 expect us to be approaching finals?

I expct us to be approaching finals in 2009

and it is then that i actually expect Pagan's expertise to really start to shine. One of the reasons i think i am pro Denis is because i think he is has excellent finals experience. This i where I think he is a master.

Was he the right man? Probably not in the beginning - a young coach might have made it easier to accept the need to rebuild. But we are rebuilding, and well i think. i want denis to be there when we hit finals again.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Thorton had to play on the gun forwards well ahead of his time for a young bloke, and for a long time did a fantastic job. I think the pressure of being the "whole backline" for a long while eventually too much for him in the end.Think he'll end up ahving a good career at the once he gets some decent help, both up back and through the midfield.

don't assume to know what I think is right to do without asking me.

And just to follow your 2009 theme, given my countless posts on the topic, I would have to seriously doubt our ability to win anything by 2009 under Pagan.

Dannyboy, your strategy seems only to be based on a prayer and doesn't seem to look at all at the structure of the side, the playing list, and our current output. You couldn't run a business thinking "Joe will be a good manager in 2 years when the uncertainty is cleared".... how do you get through the uncertainty??? Who's managing the team through that??? Pagan's efforts in the last 3 seasons have not done anything to instill any confidence in his ability to manage us through uncertainty. Perhaps Pagan could go into a bubble and live there for 3 years, and wait until we have a good team before we release him.

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Love Cricket? Love me

Thnak you mr positivity for another truly ridiculous comment.

So you didn't see Fev chasing, set up Waite with a couple of goal scoring chances or be held by Hall before EVERY contest ...

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In WADA we trust

in football i try to recruit talent and understand that nowadays talent is in the kids and kids take time to develop.

We've drafted talent

they are kids

we must allow them to develop.


Bringing in a new coach would not accelerate this, not now. In the begining maybe.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Livo or an injury free Adam Hartlett are the keys to Thornton's fortunes.

Get either one of these players into the side at full back and it unleashes Thornton to the half back line where he can play his natural game.

IMO it's as simple as that.

Thornton is a classy player and would be wasted in the 2s where'd he almost certainly carve up.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

And what if the role was reversed Danny?
What if the President told the coach that the list was shot and should be rebuilt?

What if the coach disregarded that and openly stated that the list was a finals contender.
He would be playing for wins instead of rebuilding.

What would your thoughts be then?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I never said he was being played out of position...

The short/sharp game doesn't appeal to Thornton. He's better when either uno on uno or defending long leads. Flooding kills his style cause he's not real quick over the first 10m.

He's also much better at clearing to targets 50m up field rather than 20m targets.


I think the game has passed him by .



just kidding . He'll hang on, but it has been a big slump.

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