In 2000 St Kilda finished last
They recruited Reiwoldt, Kossi Hamill and Blight

Mid year 2001 they sacked Blight and finished 15th

2002 new coach and new strategies - they finished 15th

2003 as their players developed they finished 11th

2004 Further development finished 3rd

2005 The coach was in full steam - 4th

Lucky they sacked a dual premiership coach with years experience, hey

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That's where we disagree Jarusa.
The facilities available to the coach are almost irrelevant in my opinion.
I posted this view earlier.



That is the role of the coach IMHO Jarusa.
The physical development, speed, body building etc is the domain of the strength and conditioning coach. That is where resources and facilities are crucial.
Pagans role is intellectual and managerial.

Do you think our players are as well developed tactically as other sides?
Do you believe their decision making is as developed as the other clubs?
That is the coaches role.

I firmly believe we are severely disadvantaged.
Pagan took the creativity and decision making away from the players in 2003.
He compromised their development from that day.

As for Libba?
He could be the best assistant coach for all we know.
What input does he get?
It is Pagan's ship.
If Libba or Elshaugh are poor. Pagan is responsible.
He pleaded for the status quo to remain.

When it's all said and done, the results rest with one man.
Not wins and losses but the development of our team.
I believe our players have been deprived.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I'm with BV on Pagan and think he has covered all the issues and explained his points of view very well so I wont be rehashing them .
It hasnt worked with denis and the results cant be argued with..end of story....when I read the Herald Sun today and read that our midifield are the clangar kings of the AFL that pushed me over the edge as far as timing goes.

The sooner the better in my books and Libba and Elshaugh can join Denis as they are useless and have contributed very little.....our skills are down amongst the senior group and some of the juniors are heading the same way and need remidial work..I dont want Murphy and Walker in the top ten clangar merchants and enough is enough lets get it done and clear the decks before its too late...

Rod Waddell made a good point getting it right off the field first and I agree.....I'm not enthused aboiut Smorgan and would have preferred Lee...not more of the same from another tired board member who seems out of touch and wanting an escape hatch by laying all the problems at the feet of the coach....

Its a mess thats going nowhere and our only assets are our good young players but with turkeys like Libba, Elshaugh and a senior coach who seems lost its time for change....and now...

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- Conor Gillen

Training Services Fault

And you are only assuming that there IS a strategy. Remember, I am talking about having no confidence in Pagan because of my perceived lack of strategy.... and have given several examples of how I have perceived a lack of strategy (davies et.al).

Walker is an example of a player having A strategy behind is development. Sure... thats good.... I admitted that myself. But what of Davies, Sporn and Wiggins... to name 3. Whats their plan?

A full-side plan considers multiple elements... the effect on some players of bringing-in players for their position..... the effect of seeing "equal" players arbitrarily favoured.... good contract negotiations..... good training.... good culture.....

Some of those things mentioned have been PAINFULLY badly managed.... some better than others.

Thats my point.. haphazard planning. "No strategy" is me being glib, but clearly my point all along has been "haphazard" or "ad hoc" strategy.... which fills me with no confidence. Having draft picks is meaningless if you don't invest a lot of strategy into their development. And, for what I perceive (and no one has convinced me I'm wrong, just TOLD me I'm wrong) there isn't a lot of strategy devised ACROSS THE BOARD. Murphy might get picked every week... Kennedy could come in.. Walker taught a lesson about accountability... sure, thats good and fine. Thats a strategy. But what about the rest of the list?? What about the lesser lights? What can we see about their development???

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Look, end of the day, BV and myself have very vocally and at length argued our points. We've both made some very valid claims and been told we're wrong with little to no substance. There's a lot of hoping and "what about at North", and "she'll be right", and "its Parko's fault" or "its draft picks" stuff.....

I'm yet to read anything compelling that supports Pagan besides throw away lines with little substance.

There's only so many times I can say that I perceive little development. I think Pagan supporters, for the sake of the thread, should come back to us with what Pagan is doing NOW to grow the team... not in 5 years time "when the list is better"... NOW

WHAT?

The floor is open, and I'm waiting

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Where did I say there is a strategy?

I suggest you read posts properly before replying.

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In your humble opinion

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I think his developing of the kids in the side has been good. Also, I like the way he handles it all.

From what I can tell he gives the younger players a nibble here, a nibble there of senior action and then in their 3rd season he gives them consistent game time and they flourish. Kade Simpson is an excellent example of this. Pagan has nurtured him through the VFL and on to the AFL stage to the point where he has probably become the best, young midfielder on our list at the moment.

I feel he is doing the same with Russell at the moment and will continue to do the same with guys like Hartlett, Blackwell etc

The only time Pagan will ever play someone in Round 1 is if they are a freak. Case in point - Murphy and Eddie.

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yes har-dee-har Mr funny poster man

I'm trying to make the point that its absurd to use "but thats only your opinion" as an counter-argument to something posted on an internet forum..... of course its my opinion! Its (unlike jimmae's penchant for non-sourcing) fairly obvious I'm not talking from an insider perspective... I make it pretty clear that this is based on my perception... just as your objections will be based on your perception.....

.... I'm waiting for people to try and use counter-examples to demontrate that my perception is erroneous.... all I get is "yeah..... but... thats what you think!" stuff.

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the door I should think we a fair few of them.


The sad thing about this argument is that we will never know unless Denis stays around for 3 more years and achieves nothing.


If the club does get rid of him I just hope they go out out (with excellent porocesses) in getting another coach - and back that coach.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Do you need to have a talented list to have a kickout strategy?

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

[quote="The TyrantWalker is an example of a player having A strategy behind is development. Sure... thats good.... I admitted that myself. But what of Davies, Sporn and Wiggins... to name 3. Whats their plan?
[/quote]

The average lifespan of an AFL footballer is 3-4 years. Drafting is not a perfect science.
Players don't make it for several reasons:
Coach can't get the best out of them.
Player is simply not good enough (ability).
Player does not have the right attitude.
Player has been unfortunate with injury.

I say with Sporn it is a combination of injury and ability. Davies it is attitude and ability. Wiggins it is purely ability. I think if these guys have not been developed properly by Pagan and other clubs recognise this like some TC posters have then it means they will have another opportunity at another club.
Of those 3 boys, Sporn has a remote chance and the other 2 have no chance of finding another club.

I'm pretty sure pro-stats demonstrated we were one of the best teams in the competition for coast to coast goals from kickouts last year.

So if there is no strategy we have arsed it pretty well.

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But isn't that a bit of an unfair ask?
Of course it's easier to percieve little development - they happen before our eyes at the footy in the form of 4 straight losses.

Development, IMO, often involves a longish initial period of slow motion…followed by a steep curve of improvement which obviously we are not at yet. It's like when you start a new job, or try to learn a new software package. It sucks for months & months & everything seems beyond you - then there comes a point where you find it's all falling into place, until further down the track, you've mastered it.

I just don't think constantly turning over coaches is the answer - just ask Rich, who IMO finally made a good decision to appoint Wallace for 5 years (love him or hate him)

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#DonTheStash

The average lifespan of an AFL footballer is 3-4 years. Drafting is not a perfect science.
Players don't make it for several reasons:
Coach can't get the best out of them.
Player is simply not good enough (ability).
Player does not have the right attitude.
Player has been unfortunate with injury.

I say with Sporn it is a combination of injury and ability. Davies it is attitude and ability. Wiggins it is purely ability. I think if these guys have not been developed properly by Pagan and other clubs recognise this like some TC posters have then it means they will have another opportunity at another club.
Of those 3 boys, Sporn has a remote chance and the other 2 have no chance of finding another club.[/quote]

Not a bad reminder there woof, and one I agree with. There are a lot of reasons why players don't cut it... and the lions share of the responsibility is in the hands of the player either not being any good or not applying himself.... but coaching certainly plays a role.

My question is not "why aren't Sporn and Wiggins good players... it must be Pagan's fault", its "what long-term plans have been in place for them?" I don't believe they've had them. I cannot comprehend why Davies was played as a forward pocket last year and then written off never to be seen, in a team that was SO crap and had SUCH a bad midfield. Ok... maybe it is that Denis decided Davies wasn't any good. Fair enough... thats his perogative... BUT IF THATS THE CASE, WHY WASN'T HE DELISTED???? and if he had another year on his contract, thats another massive error on our part. Just shocking stuff

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Love Cricket? Love me

But why Danny?
Why cant Pagan be judged in his 4th year?
It's not about wins and losses, it's about substantial improvement.

Do you think our kick out strategies are on a par with our opponents?
Do you think our efforts at thwarting our opponents kickouts are up to scratch?
How do you assess the decision making of our players? ie. when they are confronted by an empty forward line, do they make the right decisions?
Do we react quickly enough when new tactics are employed against us?

IMO, the answer to all these questions is in the negative.
They are the responsibility of the coach.
How do you rate them?

What has Pagan achieved in 3+ years at the club?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

This year the rule has changed so last year's statistics would not give a proper indication of our performance in kickouts so far this year.

It was obvious on Friday night in the first qtr that our kickout strategy wasn't working. Why didn't Pagan do anything at qtr time to stop Richmond taking it up the ground so easily?

"Probably the difference was how slick they were with their kick-ins," Pagan said.

"We couldn't defend them. I think we won one and they won 13 and kicked three goals from them. And that was the difference in the finish.

Why couldn't we defend them?

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

But surely Pagan has KPIs.... and though we may not know them, what outputs can we point to as examples of successes..... what what if there are more "cons" identified than "pros"?

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Love Cricket? Love me

Maybe because they were better on the night?

Did we lose the other three games as a result of kick-out strategies?

And what about our goalkicking strategy? where is that? We would not have had to worry about Richmonds kick ins if we had kicked straight.

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