If that's development to someone's full potential, you're Pagan argument's struggling. The guy struggles to hold a mark.

Don't see why some can't see it. We've been terrible, going no-where now a 4th year. We started last , were last last year and we're heading there again. We have a list that should be doing alot better than that and any decent coach would have us doing much better. Surely it can't be hard to see. Then is none so blind than those that will not see!!!!

Think Jar was having a joke their Jim. hence the

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

can someone get jim a sarcasm detector?

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

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Sorry.........I stuffed up!!! Didn't read through the threads to get the context.

If we ended the game on top by 8 points we wouldnt even be having this discussion...

Wouldn't be having this discusion even if we won by a point, even if it was as sh1t a game as it was. Denis would get a week off from us! Human nature kicks there. We get excited over any win these days. Unfortunately, the way we're going the discussion would've been back again next week.

But why Danny?
Why cant Pagan be judged in his 4th year? - He can be judged in his fourth year BV. But any judgement must take in to account the circumstances otherwise what's the point. Justice is all about consideration of all the facts. And as I have stated, my judgements are based on my expectation from the moment those penalties were handed down - now this may be an error on my part, I can accept that but the fact is when those two years were taken away and we lost the first two picks straight away
I expected to see a side that would be barely competitve for 5 years. the year we finished with 10 wins still, for me, shows the amazing capabilities of Denis as a coach - how we got that many wins from that list amazes me. regardless of any argument about how it might have bene better to finish last and get the two picks (ala Richmond and Hawks and Doggies)

'It's not about wins and losses, it's about substantial improvement.' - This is the hard one hey BV. Given my fears at the start of his reign as coach, what was i hoping for? First and foremost i wanted to see Denis and carlton establish a youthful and strong list. I immediately discounted the two years without picks (thank God for Tex hey) - whereas I think Tyrant would argue we could have still gone for kids here, I understand his point and admit at the time I thought the only way to go was retreads - now, well maybe two late kids may have been interesting. Still I would give Denis and club (I struggle to isolate the two throughout all of this, maybe I should) a big tick on the 2004 and 2005 drafts

'Do you think our kick out strategies are on a par with our opponents?' Here no I seriously do not. However I disagree with you that this is due to Pagan. I think it is due to the age of the list. Neil Craig and Rodney Eade both put it really well. Players (more than ever was the inference from both of them) nowadays must be able to think through situations - and I think you cannot put an old head on a young body. In part my point about Lance. Denis feels he needs someone who can think through the oppositions strategies from defence and uses Lance (as he uses Houla and Skinny) The argument against T-Bird on Richo is an holistic argument. We needed to think through their blockages and we weren't until Lance moved back and then we did much better - but fell down up forward. two Lances anyone?

'Do you think our efforts at thwarting our opponents kickouts are up to scratch?' here I would mark Denis as a fail. In fact i fial him on flow in all aspcts of our game. And i cannot for the life of me work out why (unless it is under use of the interchange) because one of the things i saw happen in that successful whizz fizz was brilliant speed of movement and the ability of our team to interrupt the flow of the other team. Why have we lost this or not able to put it in to practice in the real season?

'How do you assess the decision making of our players? ie. when they are confronted by an empty forward line, do they make the right decisions?' No but they are young. What angers me is that Skinny and Kouta and (sometimes stevo) seem to be worse than the kids.

'Do we react quickly enough when new tactics are employed against us? Not sure yet. Sorry, give me a few more games this year.

IMO, the answer to all these questions is in the negative.
They are the responsibility of the coach.
How do you rate them?

What has Pagan achieved in 3+ years at the club? So far little more than the revamping of our list - which is all i wanted for those years. Though he did give us a year where it was good for the kids again in 2004.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

It's not about what I think of our list Tyrant, you and BV dismiss my opinion pretty quickly. I'm asking you to produce a list so that not only I, but others can have a look at where you're coming from.

I was referring to BV being the broken record, you're all over the shop at the moment and are the one who has reached a ceiling, I'm waiting on you to respond to a reasonable request.

BV has been quoting me over the previous weeks saying how I'm all piss and wind and how I never explain anything at length, I did, now I'm waiting for some rebuttal.

Can either of you give me a list of players you are satisfied with the progress of and can you give me a list of the opposite?

Don't give me a list of duds, and say "oh look they're duds" name a player which seemingly had a future and Denis turned out the light on it.

Jimmae out.

I too have questioned the development of our players and the speed of that development. But perhaps there are some players who just won't amount to anything resembling a decent footballer.

Question how would the Wiggins, Sporn, Livo's, Davies, etc have developed at Ess, Coll (Sheeds & Malthouse - from the old school)?

How would their development of been at Adelaide, Sydney (Craig & Roos -the new school)?

One can only speculate but I hardly think they would be setting the world on fire.

Having said that i am not convinced that we are doing everything possible to develop and fast track our players.

The lights not completely out but it is starting to flicker

Nick Stevens

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Name his support cast in the midfield.

That's going to change very, very soon.

Jimmae you asked for the name of a player who wasn't a dud that who's lights have gone out.

I gave you one and you automatically make an excuse for him. If he hasn't got the support he needs in the middle then why. Is it because the players around him haven't come on quickly enough or is it that his mate that took the heat off him is now playing for Essendon*. But regardless of what the answer is Nick Stevens is heading backwards

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Stevo - in what regard has he gone backwards SB?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I've explained this earlier in the thread at length (and I know you've read it) but ok.

He has too few mates who are capable of supporting him in the midfield, week in week out, at the level of consistency required. As a result, he takes a fair battering each week from the opposition, both through taking hits and having to run flat out a lot.

So I ask you, name his support cast and then we will break down the individual issues, as I did earlier with the 22 vs Richmond.

What rubbish

Nick Stevens is no less of a player than when he arrived at Carlton.

Put Nick Steven's today into the West Coast midfield and you would all be wetting your pants throwing 1st and 2nd round draft picks at him.

Jimmae is spot on. Stevens needs support in the midfield. (A Dean Cox style ruckman would not hurt either).

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Working alone. At the coalface. Scott's gone for lunch! Said he would be back in 30 mins.

For the purpose of the argument lets look at Wiggins. Ok the easy argument is that Wiggins is a hack that will never amount to anything so Denis never had/will have anything to work with.

On the other hand, what has been done to develop his strength and weaknesses. On the most part, Wiggo has poor decision making skills which impacts heavily on his disposal. What Wiggo has in truckloads is endeavour and willingness to do the team things.

For the last 3 years he's been in and out of the senior team and never ever cemented an on-field position. He has been tried in defence mostly but never really made a success out of it. This means he invariably spent a lot of game time warming the bench. As a result he gets sent back to the twos, to get his hands on the footy, but where does it go from there? That is the question that has been raised by BV and Tyrant.

Is time set aside for him at training to help his decision making and disposal skills? Do they persist with him in defence where his errors be more greatly exposed or do they put a plan in place to either improve those skills or perhaps groom him to play in another position? For example, the best senior game I think Wiggo ever played was against Port at AAMI last year when he played mostly up forward. He was mostly used as a defensive forward but managed to kick 2 goals too.

Wiggo is back in the Bullants now, and has been for some time but what is his role there? He seems to play in the midfield there and do reasonably well but will he get a chance to play there if he gets a gig in the seniors? Are they grooming him for a specific role in the senior team? What is the devolpment plan? Or are they just going to let him play out his days at the Ants and chop him at the end of the year?

Now, just a reminder. I'm just using Wiggo as an example. FWIW the jury is still out for me on whether or not Wiggo has what it takes. I just ask the question, what has been done to get the best out of him?

Also, I'm not calling for Pagan's head, much like BV and Tyrant, I'm just asking questions about development of our LIST not just our top players. And it's just my opinion.

It's pretty hard to build a footy brain on a player from nothing. Players like that need significant athletic abilities or they are a one in a million type player (well not quite those odds, but you get the idea).

Wiggins is none of these.

You're dead right in what you say, Wiggins has clean hands, reasonable skills and no ability to read the play, playing him in defense he would be very reactive to the situation, likewise in the midfield. So you would only play him in a blanketing role there.

But up forward, he can take a grab, have a bit of pace about him and his clean hands would serve him well. No real need for decision making, kicks to a loose player closer to goal or puts it through the middle.

I get what you're saying but guess what, he is directly competing with Fisher and Murphy and Houlihan for that sort of spot. Lappin too. Maybe he could take Deluca's role but would he do any better? Consider there's no longer a real mismatch, I'd say no.

The only place where Simon Wiggins is more than just a stopper is the forward line and that is cramed. Bad luck to Simon. That's why I'd err on the side of him being retained at the end of the year because he does present value and he may yet develop enough of a footy brain to be handy in other positions.

Can you name me player incredibly bereft of a footy brain who has made it, yet doesn't have some sort of freakish physical ability which gives him a distinct advantage to begin with?

You need something to begin with, some sort of standout attribute, it can be a broad thing like player x can do a, b and c pretty well or it could player y is 8 foot tall. But it has to be there.

Wiggins was the captain of the Tassie side, was a pretty mature body for his age and I believe he made his name up forward. That's where we started with him.

Now he hasn't grown, so he's been tried all over the shop to find a role, and the only one is the one he can't have save for a huge list of injuries. It's bad luck for Simon, who is a nice guy.

jimmae thanks for responding to my post, I guess wasn't so much pleading a case for Wiggins, rather using Wiggo as a case in point.

You can probably replace Wiggo with Sporn Davies Livo etc and you can ask the same questions about their development. Livo had a great first season (2002) at full back and then fell away, Sporn had two brilliant tagging games on Hird and has never kicked on. Yes, injuries and natural ability come into it. But the fact of the matter is that these players have been in and out of the seniors for years. Has there ever been a long term development plan for them or has it been a 'see how they go' policy?

and what do you base that on?

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