Thier work-rate has been less than stellar this year. They are far from causing any headaches for opposition match-ups, nor developing our forward line. you look at how the tigers are going restructurung their forward line with guys like Polo and Peddifer stepping up, and our two blokes turn into pussies when the going gets rough. Just not good enough, and it's time they started getting more scrutiny.

both over-rated by carlton supporters.
both will be good footballers at best nothing more.
Waite needs to improve kicking, not go to ground as much, play smarter more accountable football - goes missing for large portions of games.
fisher needs to get the ball more and get it closer to goal so he can hurt opposition, field kicking could improve and ability to read play must improve.

I think you should ease up a bit Buzz. They are both coming back from injury, and will likely take time to hit their straps. Although Waite really needs to wear a pair of gloves, it's infuriating the number of times he drops a mark.

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I AM DISENFRANCHISED

I think Waite's biggest problem is his judgement. His timing for marks is way off. He goes far too early and often too fast.

I think there biggest problem is game plan and structure. It's hard to be an effective forward when you've flooded back to the back pocket.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

Waite should be dubbed "The Seagull"...

Spends too much time running around flapping his arms!!

You hear about players who "play big for their size", Waite plays too small for his size. He needs to intimidate the opposition by smashing a few packs instead of continually falling over at critical times.

As for Fisher...wasn't somebody last week posting here that he was a future captain of the club?? Good grief...

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"...that's the thing about opinion - you don't have to know anything to have one..." Andre Agassi commenting on Pat Cash 2004
"...the less you know - the more you believe..." - Bono 2006

Waite and Fish each have areas they need to work on, but the biggest one the whole team can work on is NOT FALLING OVER at almost every contest. It was amazing to watch the percentage of Carlton players who fall over at a contest verse Collingwood players. It is no wonder they ran all over us - they could run in numbers while our guys watch lying down!

A genius observation, insider.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

Waite - Doesn't have the footy smarts to control a game. Mis-judges the flight of the ball and doesn't win enough 1 on 1 contests. We can only hope he developes more mentally as he plays more games.

Fish - Not big enough for a 22 yo 6'3" forward. Needs another 10K at least before he can have an affect on a game. At pick 72 - what should we expect.

Unfortunately, we are relying on these guys to be competetive for the team to be competetive.

What should we do, bring in DeLuca and Prenda or play these blokes as much as we can and suffer the pain until they get the experience we need .

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end of message

Guys you are being really unfair to both these guys....Week after week these guys are asked to cover more ground then they Leyland Brothers.. Poor Fish came back from 3 weeks out with a hamstring injury and our Messiah Pagan had that shit game plan of running back and then charging forward. This was going on the whole game and by the end the poor kid was gasping for air.....So don't take it out on them, it's the fault of the idiot that is instructing them to do this. This game plan of his is ridiculous and no wonder they guys hate him and want him to GO!!!!. It shows on all there faces, Lappin, Kouta and Stevens etc......
Waite did not have a pre season also remember he was in a cam walker pre season, besides if you look at the replay of yesterdays game( sorry to do that to you ) you will see that second half Waite spent most of the game in the backline.

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Blueboy forever

I think we're being harsh here...

Waite plays great as the 14th man defence and Fisher goes just as well as the 13th man.. Occaisonally i think they both play well as Goal Kicking wingmen.

But yes they have dropped off , but lets not be too negative its all about Pagans development plan for all our young players.


Oh oh !

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

According to many here, this gameplan is the only way to go. If you don't have the flooding possession game, you're an idiot.

If Waite could hold a grab and kick a goal at CHF I'd be happy to see him play that position. Then we could play a long direct gameplan.

It all comes down to the quality of the list - ours is shit!!

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Both have proven they are good, young, developing players. We have a forward line capable of worrying most teams given average delivery. At the moment, we have significantly poor delivery as a team and when this improves all the forwards will benefit greatly.

However, it's not doing the basics correctly that is frustrating the crap out of me (and possibly every other carlton supporter) every weekend.

Waite - don't play on when you have marked the ball at 60 metres ... and don't try to beat 2 or 3 people every time you take possession, get it to a team-mate in a better position. If he starts taking the easy marks, we'll be loving his game again real soon.

Fisher - kick straight please!!!!!!

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In WADA we trust

Good post Duke, But had to highlight the above. A man in a better position where would that be ?? Do we have those options with this current game plan ?

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

He does and it gets awarded as a point anyway!?!

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

Both are good players IMHO and keys to our future...CHF is a tough gig and Waite is still learning the game...he drops a few marks and his kicking can be wonky but I like the way he goes about it and he is a talent waiting to happen..

Fisher is a great one grab mark but needs to get some more smarts below his knees and be less of a one trick pony....we know his kicking lacks depth but he has courage and will always give you a contest. I think being injury prone has affected the way he plays the game and he isn extending himelff fully yet and just needs more game time.....

Lucky to have two very promising young forwards and these two give me hope for the future rather than being a concern...

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

I'd rather we kick long to a 2v2 (50-50) contest deep in the forward 50 rather than kicking short to a 1v1 (50-50) battle on the half forward line. Waite, Walker, Lappin and JFK were all guilty of this at various stages of the game yesterday (and in the last 4 weeks).

I'm still undecided whether it's a gameplan issue or execution problem. Pagan was criticised for having a long kicking "outdated" gameplan yet when he changes it he is still criticised. Maybe the skill level of our players means the execution isn't what it should be. You can't coach for unpressured turnovers.

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In WADA we trust

Taking a break from your homework I see. Has mum cut up your apple?

Top thread, this.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

I hate it when Waite kicks the ball low and let the ball roll into the goal, yes he got the goal, but one day the ball will bouce a different way which will be a point, why do players always do that???