You're so astute in life and football.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

You need to wake up and smell the coffee from Brazil.....because you are delisiuional with this post...going on your theory we should just put up with this crap for another 3 years before we start to improve...ok..clear vision now...based on your theory we should extend PAGANS contract for another 5 years after that!!!!!!!!!!! Get A grip mate!!!!

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#sayerscouldbetheman!!

BV, I am surprised you even asked, do you think all our players would get a run elsewhere? I revise the list by one - but anyway here is the top11 who would get a game elsewhere come trade time 2006/07.

top 11
STEVENS,Nick
WHITNALL,Lance
HOULIHAN,Ryan
FEVOLA,Brendan
WAITE,Jarrad
BETTS,Eddie
WALKER,Andrew
FISHER,Brad
SIMPSON,Kade
MURPHY,Marc
FRENCH,Barnaby

next 11 who would not be picked up in the next draft if dumped by cfc:

SCOTLAND,Heath - if dumped would be looking for 3rd club = finished.
THORNTON,Bret - gone backwards this year
KOUTOUFIDES,Anthony - too old to be picked up
LAPPIN,Matthew - threaten to leave but no takers - plus aveage start to year so far
WIGGINS,Simon - lucky to be playing at all
BANNISTER,Jordan - if dumped would be looking for 3rd club = finished.
MCLAREN,Dylan - if dumped would be looking for 3rd club = finished.
SADDINGTON,Jason - if dumped would be looking for 3rd club = finished.
BENTICK,Adam - no rep yet, under 30 games struggle to get noticed
CARRAZZO,Andrew - no rep yet, under 30 games struggle to get noticed
KENNEDY,Josh - 1 game - not shown anything yet...

Also add:

Predergast
Chambers
Davies
Livingston
Sporn
o'Hailpin
McGrath
Russell
Bryan
Raso

Other than Essendon*, what club recruits players from teams on the bottom of the ladder?

All this talk of sacking the coach achieves nothing. There is no 'saviour' coach waiting or wanting to come to Carlton, so who is going to replace Pagan? The players, coach and board have to be trusted they'll work on the weaker areas. And the members have to remove the 'blue goggles' and realise that some of the players in the bottom half of the top 22 are the worst in the league.

Get a grip? mate? What is your solution here? What did you think would happen when we were exluded from the draft? What did you think would happen after drafting mostly rubbish from 1996-2004? For a moment there I thought you went out on a limb and posted some kind of solution... But of course not, you're afraid of criticism!

I back Denis. He is working with an average playing group and nothing you can do will change that fact. He is a premiership coach and knows more than anyone here on this site about the game, otherwise one of us here would be coaching the team!

Something went right for us in the first half. I would even suggest that the collective thoughts from Carlton supporters at half time was not focussed on the coaches but on the will of the young blues to fight to stay in the contest.

Something happened at half time that was so different to the start of the game; contesting and getting our hands on the ball first. That's fundamentally the players' responsibility. Did they run out of gas? They were doing a lot of chasing, and this contributed to fatige perhaps, but that was a result of us not getting our hands on the ball first, throughout the 2nd half..

I've been pleased with the efforts of the kids prior to half time against Collingwood this year. I haven't focussed on Pagan too much, as I'm not in the know as to what goes on in the inner sanctum. I was however confused with the rotations off the bench in watching Pagan get his rotation count up using JK, and I know I don't like not having targets forward of the ball. That's a game plan issue for mine, and that is the responsibility of the coach.

Having watched the game on TV now twice, there was one thing that stood out like dog balls to me, and that was the bounce of the ball. Nothing went right for us in the second half, and everything went right for Collingwood; you just need to have a look at some of their goals. This is an inexplicable phenomena I have seen and experienced time and time again. I also talk about this phenomena to people not familiar with the game; that it does happen, and it must be the footy gods influence.

I listened to the game on MMM, and read TC posts before viewing the game, and looked for evidence of some of the opinions made....noting desriptions of particular players as "lame, weak, shit, clangers...."etc, but I found no real evidence of these opinions being the sole reasons we lost. MMM commentary was dreadfully uninformative IMO.

Shit happens, and some days you get that. It was one of those days. It happens in footy with that funny shaped ball in the hands of the footy gods. What motive did the footy gods have in handing out such a flogging?

The footy gods handed Malthouse an opportunity to question the swinging members of a footy club; and their make up (profile). We (supporters) should learn from that. If DP can get these guys up for Essendon*, then that will show me he has the players ears, and they have some ability worth believing in. If they don't, I will have questions of both the players and the coach.

Bottom line is we can't afford to sack the coach, and we are not going to get 2 more fast, strong midfielders to help carry the load in the middle this season. The footy gods will decide Pagan's fate.

Interesting post made earler on. Is it possible for Pagan to be relegated to the Ants, and have Mitchell take on the seniors?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Quick, someone grab my tablets!!!!!!!

Now you do understand Blue Insider that at least 13 of your dud list were drafted or traded to the club during Pagans time?

BTW, I suspect a couple of them may get a gig elsewhere, especially that Kennedy dud.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

We are a rabble, we have gone from last to last in 3 years with a better playing group, that he's lost, that with what's been an produced out on the field. And you want another 3 years of him. That would be 6 years of crap because, let's face it, we've gone no-where thus far under him so the odds are that we won't go anywhere under him in the next 3 years. You must enjoy watching rubbish. No other club would accept it. We know where the idiotic opinion is coming from.

BV, Yeah I thought that might get a reaction - but do you see partly where I'm coming from with the others?

Maybe in my telescope.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I dont think I'm a fool more of a realist....the issue some of us have is Pagans ability to get the best out of our youth, coach and educate them into being decent senior players using what seems as old out of date methods...Mitchell seems more in tune with youngers players for example and I think he might get quicker and better results.
No one doubts it will take time as you suggested but some of us doubt Pagans abilities with young players....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Every other team has become better too - so where does that leave us? Sacking the coach will acheive nothing - without doing something else - so what do you have in your bag of tricks to go with the sacking???

And no, I hate watching us lose!!! Hate it with a passion. Never have I left a game early but was I so fired up on Sunday I left at the 17min mark last quarter. They gave up, and for me that was it.

Thanks Elwood for reading all of it objectively. Appreciated. But I reckon we have to band together, back the coach for the duration of his contact and see what happens. If there is no showing of success by the end of his contract then the board will have to look for a good, long term solution.

Early sackings did nothing for Richmond. Nothing for St Kilda. And they are jsut short term fixes for irrate supporters.

Couldn't agree more with your posts. When you combine our on-field leadership team, our speed and our experience, we are defniitely the worst team in the competition. The 2000 draft proved to us that it can take a very long time to turn things around unless you are lucky and pick up the right kids. Of the 9 players that start in our midfield (centre, wings and flankers), maybe 2 of them would currently be in the top 100 of the 144 players that start in those positions each week. Is it any surprise we are not winning?

There is little point in sacking Pagan before his contract is out, mainly because we can't afford it. We will get 3 top 20 picks this year, and most probably another 3 next year. That's hopefully 1/3 of our starting 18 in 4 years time. Combine those with Murphy, Walker, Kennedy etc and if we draft right we'll be more than competitive. Sacking the coach won't necessarily make us more competitive. FFS we've had a dip this year and really only played one very bad half. If there is no improvement by mid next year then don't renew Pagan's contract, but calling for his head now is pointless.

That second half was terrible.

Bad gameplan that tiresthe boys out and gives them no rest.

Poor use of bench so our midfield just doesn't rotate enough.

Just think we cannot have Scotland, Kouta, Stevens and Houla on the field at the same time. Gives us no defensive pressence.

Kicking. Why is it that players in the bullants have such skills ans then here we see zip? Pressure. How do you learn to handle pressure? Exposure - at this rate we'll be a @#$%&! great side!

Look I am flat and empty and blah... but I hope if the club decides to dump this all on Denis, that they give him this year - I do not want an urgent scramble for a coach. i want a process that gives us the chance of nailing the best.

God I am so tired of all this.... Football is to release the pressures of life, a coleseum for the modern age.

I feel cooked! I hate Elliott. I hate The football department of the 90's early 200's. I hate the AFL. I am beginging to hate Kouta. I fear in the end I'll hate Denis.

To be frustrated is one thing, But hate? Thank God I wasn't born a Saints supporter! Wher eis the fun in all this?

(concentrate murphy, walker, simmo, kennedy, jr...kids....kids....kids....)

Go Bullants!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Sacking the coach is never easy and knee jerk reactions to bad losses are par for the course for supporters and you wouldnt be doing it without proper reasoning and having a suitable replacement.

It been a while since Denis started with us and we have had the cleanout phase, the retred phase and now the youth phase so we are back to square one.....our youth are our only assets.....is Denis an expert at making good senior players out of youngster?....His U19 record would suggest so as would his baby kangaroo phase when he had Carey, Archer, Longmire etc and that led to a flag...plenty of plusses there....however the anti Paganites would tell you the game has changed and his methods are outdated and not suitable and he has a used by date. and that he will do more harm than good and slow the learning process down along with his right hand man Elshaugh.

The skills have not improved since he has started...we are the turnover clangar kings...clearly we have a issue with the coaching in this area....
Has he lost the players?..time will tell..usually a series of severe beatings will indicate that....if Essendon* pump us then I would say our spirit is broken and thats his responsibility.....when you are training youngsters you can accept losses that have plenty of positives but severe beatings can ruin young players and set them back.....you have to draw a line at some stage....I think the line is getting closer and if he cant get the team up vs Essendon* and old foe who are also struggling then you have to think about what you are going to do next.

Prospective Replacements......Mitchell, Odonnell Ross Lyon, maybe Voss.....you have to look at them too in depth and see what they bring to the table and if they can get us where we want to go .....you dont rush into it but you start planning and setting some goals for the footy dept and your players....

Do we let Murphy, Kennedy, Bower etc be part of severe losses and get the loser mentality that the draftees of 2000 have...can we afford that in the long run...the Collingwood game was disturbing because we gave up and threw in the towel....not so good for Murphy, Kennedy etc to be part of that.....thats what worries me more and if that continues then Pagan has to go regardless of his contract or past glories....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Can the name calling guys...you are being very childish.

wow bluelife - by your comments we should be half decent in about 7 years time!!! This is not good enough, I don't want DP to ride us down and then take all the glory for getting us up on the back of being a terrible team.
Someone else mentioned that we don't want to rush in finding a replacement - we could have an interim coach similar to Jezza in 89' which would then give us plenty of time to source the right man for the job. I am sure Mitchell won't mind filling in

Any more posts like the ones that have been deleted and posters will be given warnings.

I would suggest you are being delusional if you think that a different coach since 2003 would have resulted in us playing finals now (which is what being half decent should equate to).

We simply don't have the champions and leaders in the 26-31 age bracket that really top teams have. We won't have them for another 4 or 5 years. It pains me as much as I'm sure it pains you, but that is the stark realiity. The 2000, 2002 & 2003 drafts set us back the best part of 10 years. If you want the coaching staff to be the scapegoats for that then fine, change the coach - but it won't have a major impact on getting us where we want to be.

I never said that we would be in a different position now, it is the future I am worried about (like you are also). I just feel that a change in coach gives us a chance to have a better, or even an actual game plan and that the players may play with more heart and actually care what happens out there.