Pretty happy with your thoughts there BV, but I don't feel that they will be incredibly successful, however, that's development.

Thumbs up from me.

hey BV I'd be happy with that so long as everyone then stopped carrying on about the losses, the spoon and all that other crap. But at the moment it seems to me some (and not you - clear enough ) want denis to attack, to use all the kids, to win games and to be held accountable for our appalling record.

Can't have a kiddie cake, eat it and complain about the stomach aches too.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Something out of left field.

I think that the 16 weeks can be broken up into 12 and 4 .

For the next 12 weeks i think we'll continue to flood, we'll use Lance as a defender, keep Livo in the 2's, not give Carlos the "Right Structure " when we play him again and keep elevating and dropping young players. We will hopefully win a few games ( steal ) and have no real thrashings.

In the final 4 weeks we'll play an attacking brand of football with Lance as a forward Option, Livo playing in defence and the young kids all getting a decent run ( with or without making errors ).
The last four weeks of the season may not yield 4 wins but will definately give us hope for the following season.

Then we will all wonder why Denis didn't take this approach 10 weeks ago.



Now seriously with 16 weeks to go, what do we know?
Ideally what we all what to see is 16 wins. What we don't want to see is 16 losses, what we probably will see is about 4 to 5 wins maybe 1 in 4 games as an average.

OH well. Still in Carlton we Love !!!

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

I concur with my learned friend Blue Vain J.

What might actually happen is that we might actually win games later in the season after the early development phase as the team learns how to play together and learns lessons.

I'm only getting more angry at Pagan whilst writing so I'll stop.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Fair point from Danny...youngsters means some short term pain and some Zac Dawson moments so you cant go complaining about results etc etc....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

With the BV plan (which I support entirely) you can also use that in a strategic communications sense to drive your marketing, sponsorship and membership initiatives amongst other off-field issues. Hawthorn have been reasonably successful in my mind to sell this 'dream'.

Carlton's current messy on field strategy gives you nothing to sell off field.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

I think the majority of complaints are directed at the established players who at times are either just going through the motions & not leading by example or are just continually no bloody good.
Most people here understand our kids will make mistakes while learning their trade I reckon. In fact I think there's a hell of a lot of encouragement directed their way on here whether we win or lose.

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There's so much I could say...

When training watchers like Frank and BV are demanding this it really makes you wonder what is going on with the coaching staff. We seem to have no set plays, no structure, no innovative planning or training, just 17 guys behind the ball and Fev and his 5 opponents. I know lots don't have time for Prenda, but I reckon he didn't get a go last year and the same is happening this year. In a final in 2001 he played as a moving forward and was okay. Livo Wiggo Sporn Davies et al probably won't be around next year but they have gone nowhere under Pagan. Virtually all the young players were better in their first few years under Britts.
It irks me to say so but that cowardly thug Clarkson, with a 2 year contract and no rep, has shown the sort of guts we haven't. He's coaching for a premiership in 2009 and he may get it. They at least have a plan, ours seems to be to minimise the damage. And playing Josh Kennedy in our current structure is likely to do him more harm than good. Setanta seems shattered since his Hawthorn game.

The thing that is really effecting everything is the massive debt, the committee don't want the team getting flogged every week, but if we followed the Hawthorn model at least there would be hope, at the moment we play as though there is no hope. The players seem uninspired, the coaches non plussed, the supporters pissed off.

This is what I want to see (will never happen though)

1. Players going head to head all around the ground (ie no flooding)
2. play to our lists strengths - which is the forward line and tall options in the front half - that means whitnall up forward and livingston at FB if he is the best option
3. accept that the backline is weak and cop it and allow them to settle (I'd go thornton/livingston/lappin/carazzo as the main ones (saddington in there only if he shows form!) - if that means the opposition scores on 50% of forward 50 entries then so be it. Back our players to do enough damage going the other way when we have the ball (we tend to do reasonably well in clearances/HBGs)
4. When bringing fringe/new players into the team then give them at least 6 weeks minimum of maximum game time (fitness permitting) and actually tell them what that they will be given that opportunity to build a spot within the team provided they give 100% effort/commitment - irrespective of how their opposition does (ie if livo has 12goals kicked on him by gehrig then leave him there - a la dawson at hawks).
5. Quit playing favourites (ie deluca!)
6. utilise the damn bench!
7. we have several tall running players that take reasonable marks which could provide an invaluable link through the midfield - waite, fisher, prendergast. I would have all 3 within the team and instruct all 3 to lead through CHF/forward of centre region to present targets to the backline. Instruct the backline to target these players as the ball leaves the back 50 rather than looking for shorter options. That would be the basic 'game plan'

In terms of on field structure when we have the ball (coming from the backhalf)

backline - standard back 6 (3/3)
midfield - 3 talls roaming (prender/fisher/waite) + 2 rovers ( murphy/betts/blackwell as options) - all forward of the centre line. The 6th midfielder remains within the back 1/2 of centre in case an option is needed (smaller mid)
forward
forwards - standard forward structure (3/3)

fisher/waite start games on forward 50, prender as ruck rover - during play, 2 starting mids drift forward (say houlahan/stevens) whilst the forwards move to mid for that running option

Grant Thomas has a pretty good list, many say the best list in the league.
I wonder if he will win a premiership?

Your second point, Malthouse can coach when he has the cattle, Malthouse can't coach when he does not have the cattle. The other 3 should be afforded the same logic.

Have to respond to that 4th chicken.

What you have on offer is perfection, IMO. Good advice. A free flowing plan we play on our terms. Hoorah.

For the last 2 years I have waited to see the 3 talls (great mismatch) play in the midfield. I think it's traditionally called "The Carlton 6' wingman" wink wink. Waite, Fisher, Prendergast are all very good runners and tall enough to have a height advantage with marking; in fact they're bigger than the 6' wingman.

Dare to be different. Dare to challenge.

I wont be surprised to see some of your advice in your post become reality in the near future. The season is slipping, and soon enough the numbers will tell DP that with our current style of play, we aren't playing finals footy in 2006. You'd think that should be enough to break his shackles. But hopefully earlier.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I don't want to steal anyone's thunder here, but I began this thread under the title of 'Game plan for the coming weeks.'

Anyway, enough of my grandstanding!

There have been some references to breaking the shackles. My point exactly. The season in one respect is 'gorn!' but we can work a different game plan that will maybe put the onus on the players and break the shackles of this defensive gameplan.

We've got nothing to lose. DP should free them up and forget about winning and losing and wooden spoons and just let them attack and attack.

We all love the Blues. Let's will some change and belief into the boys.

I still maintain our list isn't that bad and we can turn things around a little and show more promise at least.

Everyone says our list is the worst. Well they are bloody genuises, aren't they - we won the wooden spoon last year. How enligthening! And we are near the bottom again.

Personally, our list isn't all that bad and it can improve this year, but even DP would think that a change is appropriate. DP did say 'back to the drawing board.' so maybe he is already thinking along the same lines.

Hey I'm rambling. As long as Collingwood and St.Kilda don't win the premiership, I'd be happy. Woops!, I'm rambling again.

Yes Thomas does have a pretty good list (when injury free), but I wouldn’t say it’s the best in the league
Although I don’t rate the bloke, I also wouldn’t be surprised if the Saints do win a premiership under his tenure. However, this would be in spite of him. Dare I say that the Saints may already have a premiership with this list if a decent coach was in control.

The other 3 have been afforded the same logic. It is obviously much easier to win games with a good list, & therein lies my point. Without a good list, the ‘old school’ coaches appear to be antiquated in their approach & game plans. Whereas the younger brigade of coaches appear to be more innovative in their ideas, game plans & development of kids.

The stronger the list, the more options you have at your disposal.

Our list isn't that bad, it's just young, and therefore it's a list for the future.

What is lacking is creativity from the coach. That's what I want to see. I don't enjoy watching the same game plan as the one Brittain was using when we had 16 injuries in 2002. Let's move forward (literally).

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Geez that was a good post BV. What irks me is that Pagan has been on record stating that he'll keep his midfielders out on the ground for as long as possible. Does he not subscribe to this "modern" approach of rotation? Does he have no confidence in the lesser lights joining the rotation?

Agree with the Waite, Fisher types playing the wingman's role it is crucial that we experiment and not become so bloody obvious.

Pagan must be a dream to coach against for opposition coaches.

By the way is he a good motivator. Does he generate sufficient confidence in the players. Both areas appear to be sadly lacking with our team.

Do we have a pyschologist at the club?

Pagan said he expects his midfielders to play 4 quarters and should stay on the ground as long as they're playing well. Does any other coach think like that any more?

When the midfield relief options are players of the ilk of Wiggins, Sporn, Chambers et al he simply doesn't have the luxury of rotation.

Our chronic lack of developing talls (up until this year) means we haven't been able to rectify the midfield deficiency yet ... and makes the drafting of the mid-sized Russell with pick 9 difficult to work out. It was also why I was so keen to take Tenace with pick 2 a few years ago although if Walker cements a place in the backline I'll be happy with the outcome.

I'd expect us to go hard at midfielders in this draft but it means we're still a couple of years away from seeing it develop into a competitive unit.

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In WADA we trust

We have SFA talls that are any good. Kennedy, Bower, Whitnall and T-Bird. That is it.

midfield options?

Simpson, Carrazzo, Walker, Scotland. They all played negating roles on Sunday.
They should be a constant component of the midfield rotation.
Jordan Russell could have played on Thomas.
Bannister could have played on Johnson.
You dont put your creative players in negating roles and begrudge your lack of midfield options.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Nice to see a more constructive thread at last.

Time to send a missive to Denis BV. I don't just mean a copy of your post or a link to this thread. Time for a serious plan. 10 pages at least. Instead of spending as much time as you do in here talking to nuff nuffs pull your finger out and write it up. Imagine you're applying for the position of coach.

When you've finished perhaps you could post the full document in here and take signatures. Put it in a nice folder - that should impress him.

Petitions are bloody useless when they're just bitching but if you can properly outline a series of concerns and offer constructive options for change then they can be a catalyst.

If you put in that sort of effort Denis should at least respond to you. If he doesn't then shoot him (maybe Danny could do that - he's got less to lose than most ).



I want a forward line again...

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb