Great Idea...start fighting among ourselves and wait until our club dies...last time I looked we still lived in country where there is freedom of speech and every is entitled to there opinion.....

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#sayerscouldbetheman!!

Im really worried that the skills are infact worse than they were in 2001. Is that Pagans Fault?. Is it because he is responsible for hiring skills coaches?. Who is actually responsible for skill development?

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Go BLues

Yep, a forward line of Fev, Lance, Waite, Fisher and Betts is certainly a good one... but you could have a forward line of Lockett, Ablett, Dunstall, Hudson, Brereton and Jezza, and it would score as many goals as we are if the balls not coming in there! Midfield and half back is clearly our problem, and that's going to take some time to rebuild - and that is why Pagan puts numbers back.

Look, I'd love to see Lance stay forward all the time, and I wish Pagan would do this, but I don't want to see him sacked because he wont! We're certainly struggling with creativity and effective use in the middle and half back, and we've tried to patch that up with "retreads" because nothing better was available. Now these "retreads" excel for the Bullants... is that because of Mitchell, or is it because they're not AFL standard players, but they're quality VFL players? I'd say the later...

As for passion and commitment, I'd say that we've only played 4 or 5 bad, uncommited, quarters this year, and 2 of them were on Sunday...

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If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

Postponed until the St K game.

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#DonTheStash

you've got to be kidding!

FFS the pagan has had one hand tied behind his back since the day he arrived.

i cant remember Essendon* or melbourne missing out on basically two entire drafts and loosing a $1 millon bucks just as a new coach arrived, not to mention that we were ALREADY at ROCK BOTTOM, with next to no promising kids coming through.

i'm amazed we haven't won 4 spoons in a row.

i'm just as dissapointed and pissed off as anyone about our current predicament but i can't see any value at sacking a coach mid season.

if the season continues to go down the toliet then yes pagan should be held accountable but sacking him after 6 games which were 1 win 4 competitive losses and one 12 goal loss i think would be way over the top.

yeah... of course you do.... so go ahead an denigrate him all you want!

No, that is the issue..... democracy.... Cammo starting a petition has nothing to do with the ACTUAL state of the club, and everything to do with his right to believe there is something wrong, and want to capture support for his contention... which is what happens in a democracy... if you don't agree with him, denigrate him plentifully and not sign it... tear it up, if you don't want to... start your own "Cammo is a wanker" petition....

.... but I reckon a lot of you are going overboard trying to find a causal link between someones right to express himself democratically and the ACTUAL state of the club.

Blueworld - your question is an illogical supposition from my point. My point is that supporters should have the RIGHT to indicate their preferences.... if the board want to include that information in their decisions then its up to them.

Knowing a little bit about Market Research, its almost certain that his survey will be corrupt anyway... ie, the sample will be most likely highly fragmented.... as propoer "market research" it probably won't be worth the paper its printed on, and if I were Smorgon I would chuck it in the bin unless he could prove the validity of this fieldwork methods.

But the issue here is his RIGHT to do it. and my answer is, of course he does.

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Love Cricket? Love me

CK the Don fans may have their petition out for Sheeds soon enough as well!!

If the petition does not eventuate at least it may ruffled some feathers of our football department.

Forget about Forwards and Backs and flooding and run with's.

The bottom line is either we have it, they have it, or no-ones got it.

We get it more than any other side and we turn it over more than any other side. SKILLS boys, its about SKILLS. We dont deliver to advantage because our players dont have the requisite skills to deliver it to advantage. Is the recruiting?. For BLOODY sure it is

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Go BLues

I certainly agree that sacking Pagan is a huge indictment on the board as well....... The board should feel a high amount of responsibility for how they have created a culture of uncertainty between results and development.

Certainly, I agree that the board have been implicit in some of Pagan's strategies (part. recruiting/trading etc).

And if they decide they acted improperly and SACK Pagan, then they need to pull their collective heads out of their arses too.. and make sure they sign someone with a CLEAR VISION FOR DEVELOPMENT

Sadly, for Pagan, his tenure has been badly compromised by the board to the point where I don't think there is any going back for him

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Love Cricket? Love me

That is just a smokescreen. That is not the issue.

I'm not saying he has no right to do it, just that it is a dumb thing to do, done in a dumb way at a dumb time.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

then don't sign the petition

whats your point?

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Love Cricket? Love me

Can we be sure that the retreads put us back two years? Would we be better placed if we had a group of low end draft picks clogging up our list for a few more years whilst we decide if they will ever make it?

I'm pretty sure that Pagan knew that the retreads weren't going to be long term members of the Carlton football club. At the time we were excluded from the 'high end' of the draft and couldn't get the cream of the kids, it is also reported that we had huge issues with the culture of the place.

The two reasons i can see for getting the retreads are -
-The first was obvious - by getting people with good character on and off the track into the club we were setting a good example for the talented kids on our list (walker, simpson, waite, fisher etc) ... something that the beaumont's, hulme's and murphy's weren't willing to do...
-People say that we should have invested in youth late in the draft and tried our luck there. Often at the back end of the draft (which has shown to be pretty hit and miss) the kids need a bit of work/time to become AFL footballers. Instead of investing the 5 years on skinny kids late in the draft, we gambled on players that may offer something to the team (and hopefully add to developing our good kids), but yet we knew that we could chop them after 1 or 2 years with no regrets. So we chose a style of recruiting that has meant we can turn over players quickly and with the best draft in the last 6 years approaching, we are at the brink of being able to stock our list with quality youth. This would not be an option if we had loaded up on kids using late picks in the more ordinary drafts, where we would have some sort of obligation to keep them on the list for 4-6 years to see if they could develop into AFL footballers. We have chosen to instead use the rookie draft (and the PSD for Eddie) to secure these kids that we would have take late in a national draft...and we haven't been shy in promoting rookies to the senior list either.
How would we feel if we had a list of players in their 3rd year of development that are too skinny for AFL but have shown a bit in VFL, but there are still some question marks as to whether they will make it. Supporters would be furious is we dumped these kids as we wouldn't be showing faith in their development and people would just add them to the list of dud recriuting that Carlton had done ... or conversely we would have a committment to these kids, and would have to keep them on the list and we would reduce our chances to get kids deep into the 'superdraft'. either way its a lose-lose.
...but where we are placed now we have taken the cream at the top of the draft for the past few years (Murphy, Walker, Kennedy, Russell, Bower, Hartlett), have players of good character around them who can develope them, and we are on the brink of offloading a chunk of players who have served their purpose whilst we again look to kids in one of the best drafts of all time.
Maybe, just maybe after our penalties, the CFC knew that we needed to take a step backwards to move forwards. for instance - the much maligned Digby Morrell and Daniel Harford are now playing for 'our' VFL team and offering their skills and experience in guiding our future stars...we wouldn't have that option if not for using an approach that some are calling 'shortsighted'.

My point is you are bringing up the democracry argument and no-one is arguing with it.

So why keep bringing it up?

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

I'm not a fan of sacking him after six games; but I'm a fan of letting the club know I'm not happy with the game style / plan and coaching methods.

They want membership money I'm sure they are aware of the reality of having to listen to that membership, good, bad or otherwise.

I believe that radical change is required now as I don't see the current processes and programs delivering anything other than what it already has.

Radical change means addressing the make up of the board; the match committee, the coach and coaching staff, game plans; marketing and communications; AFL and governmental relations etc etc.

I'll support this club through thick and thin, but they are not doing anything to crank my tractor at the moment.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

OK then, let me paraphrase that renowned master of the English language Mr B. Brownless and succinct my beef.

I have not read all of the 'sack pagan' posts, but I have read, I beleive enough. I beleive that there is a double standard in the logic of many posters. Much of the Anti Pagan rhetoric is critical of 'the gameplan' as it is perceived to be overly defensive. There are numerous posts where people are frustrated with our rebounds heading into an empty forward line etc.

Additionally, and I cant quote an individual response but to borrow from the 'Denis Denuto' defence, there is a vibe in many of the posts that they feel Pagan restricts the creative talent in our team (notably 1AW) and that he should have a more creative and attacking approach. Overall I get the feeling that many anti-Paganites want us to take more chances and play a riskier kind of game. Is this a fair assessment of some of the mountain of posts on the subject?? We want to see the kids, we want to attack more, we want to be winning again.

My observation is that threatening to sack somebody is hardly a compelling motivation to have them take more chances and try new things. If indeed Cammo is successful (and I seriously doubt that he will be) and Mr Pagan is ejected mid season from the club, what kind of message will that send to the next incumbent.

We all like to have a laugh at Dean Laidley and speculate at Nth throwing away their draft picks for retreads. We all reckon it is because they cant afford to bottom out so they have to keep propping themselves up with cast-offs. If we were to sack Pagan for many of the reasons being mooted then I beleive that any coach coming in to follow him could be forgiven for feeling like he is the second coming of Mr Laidley. You've inherited the youngest list in the caper, your older players are no good, the previous bloke, who was a premiership winning coach got the bullet because we were losing, but we want you to take some risks and play the kids?? Now who in their right mind would sign up to that? Danny Frawley??

There is bag of mixed messages many from the same posters, let me give you some general examples:

1. on one hand many posters seem to feel that a good grounding in the VFL is important and that players should earn a senior place. Examples from a bygone era of Bruce Doull, Michael Tuck etc have been posted. On the other hand many of the same posters are critical of Pagan not playing 1st or 2nd year players in the senior team.

2. many posters are highly critical of the way 1AW is being played. Many would prefer a more creative midfield spot for 1AW and feel he is wasted in defence. Many of these same posters feel he was wasted in a tagging role a year or so ago. Yet many of these same people feel Pagan is not a teaching coach and does not develop kids. They are critical of the unaccountability of our current midfield but cannot see the development going into 1AW in many of these very areas.

3. Most of the posters on the board here are, as I am, upset at the continual denigration, ridicule and fiasco that sems to surround the club at the moment. Many of us post that we would like to hear positive news and that we wished the club would get its act together with marketing and public relations. Yet in the same breath many of the same posters are supportive and welcoming of a public call for sacking the coach and petitions to that effect mid-season from a disgruntled supporter. Apparently some of the same folks that felt that changing the 'away guernesy' is destabilising have no problems in sacking the coach mid-season.

I am sorry for my succinct being so not succint. I am also sorry for making an ambiguous post earlier on, perhaps I let a little too much emotion slip through. Perhaps though somebody could explain to me the double standards, contradictory calls for action and 'knee Jerk' philosophy of many. Its great to wear your heart on your sleeve, that's what footy is all about. If you want Pagan out, that's your opinion and I can acccept that, what I find hard to accept is the mixed messages and contradictions that seem to swing with the current wind blowing through the web boards and media coverage. I reckon we have to be bigger than that and look out for the club regardless of the current 'in opinion'. If you are a passionate Anti-Pagan guy then that is your opinion.

To all of the doubters, if you are a paid up member then write to the club. If you are not a member then I have an obvious issue with your personal commitment to the club before you go calling for sackings. Overall I guess I am a little bit upset because I am a passionate and loyal paid up Blues man. I and many of my ilk, as well as the club that I love are going to be painted in the media this week as an absolute rabble by a bloke that may have some popular support, but certainly doesnt have mine. Yes it is his right to express his opinion in a democracy, but so does every member of every mob with an axe to grind. Standing up for your personal democratic beleifs is not always the best thing for the things that you love in life!!

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"Who discovered we could get milk from cows, and what did he think he was doing at the time?" Billy Connolly

agree WBY

im not normally very negative towards our coach nor players however there are some exceptions if things really give me the tom tits.

however, pagan, lost me completly against Richmond when he moved Whitnall only Richo.

We where in command of the game leading 4 goals to 2 with Richo having kicked one goal and getting vast majority of possession on the wing and Thorton was doing more than okay.

Nope - Pagan shit himself, reacted negatively and turned the game with that very negative decision.

Its not about where to play Lance its about him being a reactionary coach and not a active coach that shits me too tears.

No good having a quality forward on a back man to limit goals when you arent scoring enough yourself.

As it was he kicked 3.5 that game, hardly the stuff of legend.

Yep, that was the game that lost me, it had been building up, but that was the decision that broke the camel's back if you will.

Besides, if we do get rid of him i want a proper process in place. Either give Mitchell 10-15 weeks to convience the current board he is the right man for the job or give the board enough time to ensure we have the right man for the job.

none of this we have 2 weeks to get someone.

The biggest decision of the clubs history pends on what happens this year with respect to coaching staff and board members.

lets hope they dont @#$%&! it up.

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

How do we know he shat himself? Maybe...he decided we were holding them quite nicely, but not capitalising on the forward line...Maybe...he decided Whits might be the man to do the job and the backline should have been able to do their job without him?

Heat is on, but Pagan's desire burns hotter

What has changed in 4 years?

I've always been an advocate of youth as youth can be moulded into what you want alot easier than veterans and retreads.

Jarusa, I was excited by some of the players we did pick up at the time. its hard not to get excited after any trade/draft period, but after the dust settles it was quite clear we made the wrong decision going for retreads rather than youth. Yet over the past few years Pagan has still gone down the path of retreads in Saddington, Longmuir, and Chambers to try and fill holes in the Bullants.

The Hawks made the tough decisions and promoted the moves to the public very well, Carlton and Pagan have already done this once when drafting all the retreads and failed, yet now are trying to come and out and sell us on "will take time" as we head down the youth policy track.

IMO I want Pagan out and Mitchell to take the coaches chair for the remainder of the year. He has the faith of all the younger guys in the team and quite possibly could turn around a few players careers who many of us believe will be delisted.

Interesting comment on TBV from a few years back:

Sat Aug 16, 2003 19:27 http://www.theblueview.org/phpboard/vie ... 66&start=0

"TBV IS MOST LIKELY THE MOST BIAS GROUP OF BLUES SUPPORTERS, MAINLY BECAUSE WE ARE SO PASSIONATE. BUT FACE IT, WE CHEATED, WE HAVE A SHIT LIST, OUR COACH HASN'T MET EXPECTATION YET, OUR YOUTH AREN'T DEVELOPING AS WELL AS SAINTS AND PIES AND OUR VETERANS AREN'T STANDING UP LIKE THEY SHOULD BE. "

The same can be applied to TC but again the question has to be asked what has changed in four years?

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

Saints supporters will enjoy this....

Cammo & Co. can take the opportunity to talk to Saints supporters about coach sacking merry go rounds and also discuss how successfull they were hiring Watson (many of the sack Pagan supporters are bringing names up who have not even been assitant coaches at AFL level).