Anyway if DP performances keep going in the same direction the Media will bring enough pressure into the club.. Why should the supporters add to that and show how much of rabble we have become..

Dont believe in petitions like this ... and liable to take my wrath on anyone silly enough to put one in front of me ....I have my thoughts on DP more so on the asistants and even more so of the lack of Leadership... and even more so the Friggin board. but one thing i wont do is contribute to making the blues a bigger embarissment than what the tigers showed us 2 years ago.[/quote]That's been one of the problem's, the media has let Pagan off scott-free for some of the most embarrassing performances imaginable. At least a petition is some way of putting heat on him because supporters are frustrated. Seems Pagan has lost both the players and the members going by the figures. And where does that put us over the next 3 years, god knows! Imagine 3 more years of this crap

Read the thread Tyrant all the good points about why the petition is a bad idea have been made.

Or didn't you read the thread?

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While I disagree with the idea of a petition, I am concerned about some of the anti-Cammo vitriol.

He's Blue too, and he's hurting just like the rest of us.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Absolutely.

And credit to cammo as well for not getting on the media merry-go-round when he had ample opportunity to yesterday.

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Bingo.

Have heard that he's been physically threatened over this. Regardless of the fact that he's mate of mine, that's not on at all.

He's got an opinion like the rest of us.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

I had the opportunity to meet Cammo last year, at the same time that I met Brad, Prez, CK, Dan, Fulmont and others whom I can't remember.

While it was only a brief opportunity, Cammo came across as a quiet young kid with his heart in the right place.

Again, I don't support the idea of a petition. But if Cammo thinks it's the right thing to do then he shouldn't be threatened for it.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

OK, that is just sick.

We may not agree, but he's allowed to say what he wants. Freedom of speech.

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Cer 'ch 'n alluog Blues

Have YOU read the thread, Jarusa??? All heat and no fire.

How about you start by saying why YOU think its a bad idea, and we'll go from there.

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Love Cricket? Love me

So democracy IS the issue.... interesting.....

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Love Cricket? Love me

You have to look after your members especially the man in the street and we have not been good at that for years.....they are the faithfull, the corporates come and go as things fluctuate but your $150 buck member is who you rely on and the club hasnt appreciated that up until now....while a lot of you were laughing at Essendon* with their hordes of duffle coated teenagers its those kids who are now members and they stay members cos they get looked after.
We relied on the Corporates and while it was purely the VFL that was fine but when the game went national the writing was on the wall but we didnt see it....how do you compete with an Adelaide Crows who have that type of membership base which leads to better resources....you cant...
I dont think Victoria can support the number of teams we have and two have to go....we are in with the Dogs and Roos as candidates...and it well might be that we have to consider relocating to save the club...insolvency means you are in the hands of others and the board may have very little say in the end....i

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

... and you wonder why you aren't in a long term relationship?

Main points against:
- money, 2 and two third years left on the contract
- assistants, do they go mid-season as well? If so how much and how long are their contracts?
- redundancy, the club will already be well aware of supporter concerns about Dennis through traditional means, a petition adds nothing
- publicity, adding more fuel to the negative press about the Carlton Football Club rather than Denis Pagan
- draft picks, if there is a temporary honeymoon period as a result of a mid-season coach change that gets the club more wins that will cost draft placement in the superdraft.
- replacements, who is there to replace Pagan now and will a short term vetting procedure as forced upon the club by a mid season sacking allow us to gain the best possible candidate.

Now Ty, what are your arguments for it being a good idea?

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... and you were lecturing people about a higher standard of debate.

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A particularly poor "debating" effort, Jarusa

Firstly... WITHIN THIS THREAD there are 2 issues in place:

1) Whether or not petitions about this issue are a good idea
2) Whether Pagan should actually be sacked or not

if you don't think issue 1) is being discussed in this thread then you are extremely deluded.

Now, your answer challenges issue 2) at length.

I've never personally agree with issue 2 either.

SO, a GOOD DEBATER would come into this thread and try and define the issues.... there are 2 parallel arguments going on in thie thread.

I've only ever challenged 1 issue. You're challenging the other.

So, for someone with your particularly high intellect, it seems redundant to be even having a debate about it, especially if you are incapable of detecting the depth of the issue (ie, the dual arguments).

To answer your question:
Issue 1) I think it is a good idea to start a petition about something you feel strongly about, given its your right to do so
Issue 2) Im not convinced it is a good idea to sack Pagan midseason. I'm undecided on that issue.

... in your answer, are you criticising Cammo for not trying to answer the other questions? If so, is that his charter as a member, or the boards? Do you feel that the board, if they DID sack Pagan mid season would be unable to handle the queries you raise adequately?

So what are you really asking, and who are you asking it of? The board or Cammo? If its the board, do you not have faith in them to fix those issues?

Jarusa, I'm particularly disappointed in you after this thread. You have gone to the well of complex debate and been found wonting

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Love Cricket? Love me

Can everyone just chill for a big and stop the personal sniping...

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I stole Sheedy's Gatorade...

No need to get unravelled Ty.

1) begets 2)

You can carp on about your debating skils as long as you like, I'm not going to pretend I am better at debating than you are.

Sheesh, relax.

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BV i would take Collo's comments with a grain of salt. His performances in the past 3 years AGM put paid to that.

Tyrants is an excellent debater....en masse

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#DonTheStash

This is all one big maths debate.

Everyone should put on some of their favourite tunes, turn them up, and lose themselves in the magic of music for a while.

Does it? how?

I am relaxed.... I'm perplexed but relaxed.... I'm asking for answers and getting glib, throwaway lines.

In this thread, we have 2 counter-arguments. Some are focussing on the petition being a bad idea, others that the contention of the petition is a bad idea.

Now, we all have a chance to vote "no" on the petition and reject the message of the petition. Thats 2) taken care of.

So how is 1) still a bad idea?

Or, is the answer that its not a bad idea per-se.... just the contention is poor. ok, thats fine... but then why are people having a go at Cammo?

Why is it a "Richmond" thing to start petitions? What IS a petition? Isn't it the opportunity to raise and show support among the masses for a contention that is meaningful? And... if its not considered meaningful enough by enough people, the contention fails.... right?

The comparions with Richmond just aren't fair. The "Richmond" we're talking about is about voicing an opinion in improper, illegitimate or even illegal ways (ie spitting or heart dumping). Creating a survey isn't any of those things.... its proper because its his right to do it.... "improper" things are ones that I believe are illegal. If Cammo vandalised Pagan's car by spray-painting "get lost" on it, then I certainly wouldn't support him... but he's not.

And, furthermore, the relationship between 1) and 2) is not a clear linnear one... its much more complex. If Cammo achieves his objective of X number of members signing... then what? Does Pagan get immediately sacked? Does the board consider it at the appropriate time (ie, end of the season)... Does the board chuck it out?

Do you think a survey that asked people to agree to the contention "Should Denis Pagan be politely asked to resign at the end of the season, if the club can afford it... and if not, then maybe he can coach a bit longer?" would have the same message if delivered to the club?

Therefore, isn't it possible that a contention with a clear objective, that would have a legitimate life-span of at least a few months, could be used for a similar outcome at a different timeframe?

This is a very complex issue with a lot of variables. I fear that many of you are not considering all of them, and unfairly attacking a guy who is trying to LEGALLY make a stand on something he, and many other Carlton fans, believe in.

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Love Cricket? Love me

Tyrant, you are hairsplitting to the nth degree and I will not engage you in such a frivilous exercise you after all were complaining about the standards of debate on this board.

This is not a debating competition where a judge rings the bell and announces a winner.

You have got to realise that you are not correct 100% of the time.

Anyone with any intellectual credibility would realise that.

You seem to have no trouble conveying your failings on a personal level but when it comes to football you are never wrong.

A good discussion/debate is an airing of ideas and some counterpoints, not a hairsplitting exercise.

Good debaters also give up ground and consider others opinions and admit when they are wrong (something I have done too many times ).

That's because I'm a flower sometimes.

Now go on Ty admit it, you can be a flower sometimes too.

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