The people who are doing the petition for Denis are a disgrace to this club. And anybody who signs that petition is a disgrace because denis pagan is one of the best coaches in the afl if not the best in the comp, and like i said before the club needs the support from the supporters at the moment not all this bull shit bagging about the club. stop bagging the coach, the players and the club and start supporting them through this tough time.

Its strange only a few weeks ago that all you guys were calling denis a genius and praising him but know that we have lost a few you guys want his head. So help the club through this troubled time instead of bagging the shit through them and buy a membership if you haven't go one. And like Fev said

"we need all supporters backing us and showing loyalty rather than slagging us off"

loyalty - where is yours?

GO BLUES

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"I can't wait to win a premiership with this club" - Fev

Here, here!!

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end of message

There, there!

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

If you think he's the best in the comp you know nothing about our game. Last to last and a rabble in 3 years tells anyone with common sense otherwise. He's lost the players twice. Got no problems with a petition if we are to go anywhere and give our board the message that the media are surprisingly not given such awful performances in that time.

"and besides, it's stealing the limelight from my Get Zantuck petition….."

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#DonTheStash

Although I do not believe Pagan is the best coach in the comp I do agree with you Fev that those who sign this petition are out of order

In Pagan we trust

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A macfart a day helps you work rest and play

Good Post Fevolution. Regardless of wether Pagan is the best coach , this petition is an apalling betrayal of the club. Even if he deserves to be sacked, the club due to i's financial position cannot afford to get rid of him anyway.

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Hooked on The Blues

Explain to me how it is an "appaling betrayal of the club"?

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

I'd like to know that too.

Camm is a Carlton member who, right or wrong, thinks sacking Pagan now would be a positive move for the club.

He has every right, as a member to express that opinion, as I have every right to disagree with that opinion.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Could it be because someone's democratic right to contest the status quo is not respected by some people on this site?

Democracy?... Interesting......

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Love Cricket? Love me

Its quite simple. The club is at its lowest ebb both on and off the field. This type of divisive action only serves to split the club into waring factions.

We need a unified approach to return the club to where it belongs. The appointment or removal of a coach is the responsibility of the elected committee not a disgruntled group of supporters.

The bottom line is these petitions are doomed to fail and are a futile pursuit which serve no purpose in assisting the club to improve on its current position.

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Hooked on The Blues

I agree with all that, but I don't think it equates to a betrayal.

Cammo's heart is in the right place - I don't agree with the way he is going about it, but I don't think this is some ego-driven exercise.

I don't doubt for a second that Carlton is at the forefront of Cammo's intentions.

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

"Unified approach" only works if the status quo know what they're doing.

The status quo have to inspire the masses to opt-in to their vision.

They're just not doing that... if they're not doing that, then you can hardly blame someone for wanting to create change at the top.

And Cammo is a Carlton man who wants the best for the club.

What is Smorgon and his goons doing to inspire confidence in the hoi poloi?? How can guys like Cammo or myself get inspired to want to fall into line with this "unified approach"??????

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Love Cricket? Love me

Disagree. How could a petition such as this split the club? All Cammo is doing is publicly voicing his opinion.



Don't believe Cammo ever said "I, along with my colleagues, are the people who are directly going to sack Pagan". All he wants to do is gauge an idea, through a petition, of what the Carlton supporters are thinking in regards to Denis Pagan as Carlton coach. I know Cammo well enough to know that if he thinks he'd be pushing shit up hill to achieve something, then he wouldn't go through with it. If he couldn't get a satisfactory amount of signatures, he's tear up the petition and move on.

The petition is there to give the board an idea of what SOME Carlton supporters are thinking. Denis' coaching position at the football club is not and will not be decided by a petition much like the moving from Optus Oval to TD and the G was NOT decided by a petition, a petition that I and many others on this site stood outside Optus Oval and acquired signature after signature.



As I mentioned previously, it gives the board and idea of what SOME supporters are thinking. A board who said their number one priority was to listen to their members and supporters unlike during the Elliot era.

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Writer for SuperCoach Paige www.scpaige.com.au
Twitter - @johnfeeney24

Divisive action ???? Hmmm I think Denis knows all about divisive action

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Completely agree with PJ

All Cammo is doing is exercising his right to make comment... a right afforded him by the DEMOCRACY of the club

And as for comments like "the board elect the coach, not supporters"

x infinity

Do you feel annoyed when we, on the site, call for DeLuca to be dropped because "Pagan picks the team and not us"???

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Love Cricket? Love me

Well put PJ but my view is that the club can still guage what some supporters are thinking by receiving letters/emails signed with membership numbers, which we all have a democratic right to send.

My beef with it is how he's putting the petition on display to opposition supportes on match day!

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#DonTheStash

Democracy is over-rated!! If I thought the effort to save those miners was a waste of money that could be better spent on improving mine safety for all mines rather than just the 2 trapped ones, and I set about organising a petition and picket line you'd all call me a disgrace. (Personally I dont think that, but just to play devil's advocate). There are loads of differing opinions around that people are passionae about, running them all up the flagpole is not necessarily a good idea. There are probably folks somewheree that would sign a petition to make sharia law compulsory in Australia, that doesnt mean all australians want it.

I think what's got a lot of people upset is that they feel the club should close ranks right now, not have a public bloodletting. We know the media wolves have the scent of blood and are just looking for some easy prey. Poor old cammo, with all his passion is possibly unwittingly, in the name of passion baring his (and possibly ours as supporters) collective jugular to the wolves.

The best petition Cammo and others of his ilk can give is a membership ticket. That way if they are unhappy about the clubs direction, the coach and the board, they can vote out the current mob and put a new one in its place at the end of the year. What annoys me most is that, to my friends and colleagues, I like most of you out there will be automatically thrown in with cammo in the media. The stories that come out will say:

"Carlton fans call for coaches head" etc.

Sure some fans are calling for that and I respect their opinion, but we're not all calling for that and the rest of us will be lost in the media frenzy.

I dont think the petition is effective, smart or necessarily the best way to achieve change. If Cammo wants to do it, all power to him. I personally think we should be closing ranks and getting behind the club right now, but I guess Cammo can stand up for his beleifs, just so long as he doesnt do it in my name! I dont want to be included by association just because I am a Carlton Supporter. Yeah I know, if I'm not in agreement then dont sign the petition. But do you reckon the media will differentiate in their coverage, I dont think so. The story will be that the fans are so upset they are calling for the coaches head and realistically, we know that's not going to happen.

My last point, and it is an observation from life, is that it is always easier to make noise about what is wrong than it is to come up with a better plan. I dont know if any of us on here has ever actually recruited an AFL coach before, I certainly havent. Maybe some thought to what would happen if Cammo was successful mid season might be in order. By that I dont mean just throwing up knee jerk "I reckon Barry Mitchell's great because the Bullants players respect him" kind of stuff. Real analysis of potential candidates, their potential costs, strengths, weaknesses, 5 year plan etc etc. Petitions are one thing, what comes next is way more important.

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"Who discovered we could get milk from cows, and what did he think he was doing at the time?" Billy Connolly

im with you on this tyrant.

it gives me the flower shits no flower end to here people constatnly saying how bad an idea this is.

considering that


I SURE HOPE NONE OF YOU SIGNED THE LAST PETITION TO GET RID OF ELLIOT

double standards are unbelievable on this forum

scream to high heaven when its something you disagree with, yet its a perfectly acceptable scenario when you agree with it.

wankers

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Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

2nd Effort..... the thing I'm not seeing in your thread is the relationship between petition and action.

Starting a petition doesn't mean the action will be conducted.

If Cammo started a petition with the contention "All foreigners should go home", that doesn't mean immigrants should start packing their bags.

You'd have every right to start a petition about the beaconsfield survivors if you wanted to. In a democracy, people have the right not to sign it, and the government have the right not to care about it. And then the action isn't undertaken.

Its pretty easy.

Personally, I think the club have made so many mistakes that I don't care if the rest of the league think we're a rabble.... because thats what we are! We can hide behind our "unity" all we want... but I think the board and the coaching staff should feel ashamed about the position we're in.. both publicly and privately.

Our president is happy to air dirty laundry as publicly as possible... not its time to be hurting about it.

Seriously, the only way we will rebuild is to hit rock bottom... and I'm not sure we're there yet.

Change is what we need, and thats not what we're getting. We need change across all levels of the club..... and primarily I'm talking about cultural change... I see a lot of buck passing and shonky expectations.... I haven't seen rock bottom.

Elliott and black friday were the tip of the iceberg, people.

From then we have not learnt a bit. The empire is still in ruin... all we've been doing is shuffling the rubble around.

We need to take a good look around and get the right people who can start actually rebuilding.. not just the list... not just the backroom staff... not just the board or the finances.... but entire culture

I've got to a point where I wonder if civil disobedience is the only way to achieve complete redevelopment.

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Love Cricket? Love me