Why are debating teams so maligned ... this stuff is so COOL!!!!

poor form, Jarusa... feel free to pull out of the discussion if you don't find it productive.... but I'm asking you questions and you're giving me a lecture.

If I'm not particularly gracious in my style, then welcome to the club.

Now, I'll walk away from this thinking you were incapable of answering. If you think the difference between the 2 issues is "hairsplitting" then you are not exactly filling me with confidence in your ability to grasp the problem, and therefore provide any substance to the argument.

its all well and good to live and die by the sword (as I do), but its another thing to start weilding a sword you didn't nothing to earn.

I think you're taking this much too personally. I'm asking you valid questions and you're talking about my personal life and debating contests. Thats pretty poor form, and particularly disappointing given my high opinion of you as a person which now has to brought into question.

If you believe my last post was "hairsplitting" then thats probably most disappointing considering that my last post had about 100 times more valid content than any of my others on the topic

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Love Cricket? Love me

My apologies for bringing the personal stuff in Ty.

I assumed it would be OK as you are not afraid to bring it up in a self-deprecating manner quite regularly in both football and non-football threads.

Again, I thought given the history of self-deprecation that this would be acceptable.

If it has upset you I do apologise unreservedly, it was not my intention. If you like I can delete all of these references from my posts.

... and no, nothing you have said has upset me at all.

We will diagree every now and then, I remember the carrazzo debates early last year.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

1) I think the petition is a bad idea. But he does have the right to do it…and I don't think I've read anywhere anyone say he doesn't. The continual bringing up of democratic rights is a little unnecessary & juvenile IMO

2) Should Pagan be sacked or not? I don't think so, but if he does, not in Rd 6.

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#DonTheStash

I reckon if these two go at it long enough, it could probably
be used as a prelude to the Mundine v Green fight

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

interesting about the petition - why are people worried about it?

if he is right and million sign then good on him

if he ias wrong and no one signs, still good on him.

if we cease to take actions fearful of the media's response we are stuffed.

will I sign it? No. But I'll still have a beer with Cammo - at least he wants to do something.

Our problem is not the petition, this is only a response to our problems.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

That's right... Camo also has the democratic right to turn up to the game wearing feathers and a beak and try to fly across the ground holding a carlton flag... either way he's going to look like a goose, and make the club look foolish by association... it's still within his rights though...

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If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

just thought that before everyone crucifies glenn manton, that everyone should read this....

Glenn's real words, his own words.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

ok great.... so why then is it a "bad" idea?

because of the media?

then lets discuss the real issue:

"can bad media be a good thing?.... should we ever engage the media for propaganda about an issue we care about?..... "

I'm much more vehement about this now that before the "debates"... they've actually convinced me that not only is Cammo right to have a petition, I reckon he SHOULD do it and WE NEED IT.

We sat around while Elliott and Parko [REDACTED] up our club on and off the field

Now, I'm hearing people talk about unity at a time we're the current board and coach are doing nothing to fix the issues on and off the field...

well @#$%&! that! I don't want to appear unified behind a system that I think is poor and isn't working.

The rest of the league and opposition supporters SHOULD be angrying our blood about change. We ARE [REDACTED] and deserve to hear about it. We've sat in our towers for too long and now its time to be proactive.

If you believe that this board lacks vision, and that Pagan is the wrong coach for this club, then you should be telling as many people as you can... and agree with opposition supporters when they are critical.

Its not our fault the club is [REDACTED], but we're the ones who suffer. We didnt' pay O'Reilly under the table... we didn't even WANT O'Reilly.... and we suffered for it

We weren't running the club when we got into more debt than Mike Tyson to his dealers.... and WE'RE paying for it

its not US who pick DeLuca in the side ..... but WE pay for it.

We @#$%&! that! The people making the decisions should pay for it!!! not us!!! we won't have a club at all in a few years on current performance.... And who'll be suffering then???

Why SHOULD be we unified behind a machine that not only doesn't help us but continues to harm us!

I'll sign Cammo's petition if I see him.... and I don't intend to go to the footy anymore under Pagan... and if Pagan is coach next season.... then, I won't go then either... and if I can vote for change then I will.

Say what you will, but we're talking about Cammo destabilising the brand, or public opinion. All I see is him telling the club and the footy public that the current administration isn't good enough.... and thats a cause I can believe in.... and NOT the Smorgon/Pagan alliance

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Love Cricket? Love me

There's might be two "n's" in "Glenn", but there's only one in "Denis" Bolt.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

For me, therein lies the problem.

Cammo's petition is purely emotive, and will stir negative feeling in supporters, that at the end of the day will be for the detriment of the club... as I believe this quote proves...

Go Blues... always...

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If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

I don't have the negative feelings because of the petition

I was well aware how shit Pagan is and how incompetant our board ard well before the petition.

What the petition is doing is capturing my evidence, not causing.... just like it will capture (by non-signature) the feelings of people who do like Pagan.

How long are we going to make excuses for the board and its coach? Now is its Cammo's fault Russell can't get a game and DeLuca is the golden child?

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Love Cricket? Love me

I don't think I said it was Cammo's fault that people are feeling anti the coach, but the petition, and argument surrounding the petition, is certainly adding fire to people's dislike of Pagan et al, and the more that fire burns, the more damage it can do - like seeing good members tear up their memberships...

People have always been frustrated at selection decisions, this is nothing different... perhaps we should turn selection night into a reality TV show where supporters get to SMS in their selections? Actually, why not run the club that way full stop if we don't agree with what they're doing?

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If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

Come on, the main point that will come out of this will not be that a number of members declined to sign the petition, I can assure you of that.

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#DonTheStash

there's quite a bit more to it than that, Wolfy

and I can't agree that this "adds fuel to anything"... all I see it doing is harnessing or formalising strong negative opinion that already exists, and giving a voice to it. And that's a good thing.

A coach lives and dies by his selection policy.. if he picks an obscure player who comes good, he's a hero.

If he keeps picking duds over prospects, he's a zero

And this coach (Denis) is almost certain to die by his decisions.

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Love Cricket? Love me

Couldn't do any worse, could it?

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

I'd love to keep going on this all afternoon, but unfortunately I can't... I do think that "harnessing and formalising" is akin to "adding fuel"... before this petition debate, would you have considered turning your back on the club because of the coach?

I fully expected us to be 0-6 at this stage of the year, however for a couple of kicks, we'd be going into this week's game 3 and 3... would Pagan be getting all this shit put on him if that was the case?

Yes, a coach lives and dies by his decisions... but Pagan's decisions haven't been too far off... 5 quarters of bad footy out of 24 isn't bad for a developing side of kids in my book...

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If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

I still think Pagan is the wrong target. The board are to blame - fully. Not partly. Fully. As Synbad says repeatedly - where is their vision - they set the direction and demand Denis follow.

Denis should be on radio/tv etc pushing this club - why isn't he? Because the board do not ask it of him.

We should be pushing the kids, the growing talent etc. why aren't we? The Board.

This is an old board (in heads), acting similair to Elliott, they treat the supporters with disdain - nothing is given away, no direction, no passion, nothing. So here we are now demanding passion, demanding direction, demanding but of the wrong person.

Denis's biggest fault is in letting this board lull him into a slack duty towards the fan base. But the fault lies with board, they should be pushing him, the players, themselves and us. they should be taking hold of our bluebaggers dreams and saying

this way! Follow! We are building the new temple - Come ! Come!

They are not.

So Denis is not.

So the players are not

and we, we the holders of the flaming blue dream are angry at the Keepers of that flame but we are pointing the finger at the coach.

I'll say it again and again

if this @#$%&! board ekes out another year or two through the scapegoating of Denis then so help me I'll barrack for @#$%&! Melbourne!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

db you can't turn your back on the club because of a board that may only last a couple of years. this is the time that you sit back and watch the kids grow. the boards time will come

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Worked for the Hammerheads a few years ago and they won a premiership!!!!!!!