Molesy... i believe the club must... i dont think they will.

-You have to have balls to be a strong club....
-we have a board that wont sack assistant coaches..
-thought about re drafting Campo when he walked out..

-Wanted to win every game instead of budgeting for bottoming out.. and now realise it was a mistake so now theyre hoping the AFL will give us priority picks.
- are not capable of corporate money but are willing to go to the AFL cap in hand ..(not that i dont agree with it but only after giving EVERYTHING a red hot go)

Were not going to trade Lance... we will keep him and complain in 2 years about why we didnt...

Soft options!!!

thats what happens when a club is shit scared and knows not what to do...

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Not talking about Brownlows.. talking about elite.

Jezza didnt win Brownlows...
Brian Wilson did...

I dont get your point..

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I said his form was elite - by defeating a number of opponents in a row - good opponents too. I don't think he's an elite player - he's one of our better players - but the Walls article and your bible also say the same thing. His current form is impressive. Without doubt.

Now should we trade him?

There was no point other than my love of Judd.

Seriously... I find the believe that the draft is "hit and miss" is a bit disturbing too..... of course historically its possible, but its more scientific now than ever.

We pay a team of people good money to draft new players to this club. This is a buisness. Many jobs in the world are based on making sound decisions in an evironment of uncertainty.

We should EXPECT a good player out of a first round pick, and if they aren't any good then someone at the club has failed.... either the recruiter or the coach (unless the player is always injured).

If we swap Whitnall (or anyone) for a first round pick, then it SHOULD be with the expectation that the player will be a good one... and if he isn't then someone AT THE CLUB should be held accountable for that.

I pray for the day we stop seeing the draft as a "hit and miss" but rather a science that can be modelled.... like the stockmarket..... a first round pick is a blue-chip... a top 10 a Super-dooper blue chip.

This is a business and we should expect no less. These people earn a living picking players, and they should be getting some of them right... not all, but certainly first round picks.... and if they do get it right and the coaches get it wrong.. then thats another matter of concern as well!

End of the day, it issue SHOULD be "Swap Whitnall for a certain good player, to be selected with a first round pick"

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Love Cricket? Love me

I stayed on the billiard table 4 games straight once....My form was very impressive....

Of course we should trade him...
We have Bower Hartlett and Edwards with a possibilty of Hanson coming up...

Full house in the forward line....

Whats his future in 2 years???

Midfield perhaps????

He wont be worth a crumpet in 2 years...

simple as that!!!

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Synners I agree with all of that (other than the Club 'must') and importantly I don't believe the Club will either. It didn't last year when it had a firm offer, and I dont think it will this year in some attempt to shore up the masses. I agree the Club doesn't seem to know what to do and it feels like we're trying to tread water deliberately rather than make long-term decisions. Maybe the financial situation is stifling that - maybe they fear losing members over the trading of a father/son and favourite player of the masses?

Molesy,. the problem with why were losing members and sponsors is because we cant make the decisions which look like we have a plan.
Sponsors want to see a plan for the future...
They wont part with money for a long term sponsorship unless they see a plan.

When youre shit.. and you are too afraid of making decisions .. youre telling them your plan is to continue on doing all the things that have made you shit.

Sponsors will jiump on board if you give them an exciting options.. simple as that...

We dont have faith in Lance... oh some people want to say "And what do you have to say non Synbad!!???" but in their heart of hearts if Lance goes back to what hes been over 4 years they wont seriously be surprised....

Its like when i was having the cut of a thousand deaths when we won those ten games with a shit side... Some people were actually happy with each win cos they thought..."STICK THAT UP YOUR ARSE SYNBAD!!!"

But its stiffled the team and the club going forwards....

Its not about me.. like some people think... its about the club being on the road to a flag...

Lance can be part of it.... only by being traded for a pick that might land ius a Collard or a Proud..!!!.. not by him remaining here...

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..strange folks we have here.. ..some folks say we're being too short-sighted only looking at the big red's performances this year, or even including last year.. ..they say we need to look at his overall form, yet many only go back to when he was less than impressive.. ..in and out of the side because of weight issues and injuries.. ..although, many good players were playing shitty football, in fact the whole team was in a shambles.. ..but lance gets singled out, he costs us too much money folks say.. ..maybe, but every player is entitled to go for the most they can get, its the club thats the one signing those cheques, lance isn't raiding the piggybank..

.. ....but either way, why stop there.. ..why not look at his entire football career at carlton, coming on when he was 17.. ..he came on bigtime, his form slumped over a few yrs now its back on the rise.. .if he continues for a few more years he evens out more than well.. ..but make no mistake, he's the only genuine architect of the game we have out there on the field.. ..that is his rare/unique skill.. ..you won't find that in the drafts.. ..and lest you forget, stop talking up signing gun young players for the next ten years when he sacrifice lance at the end of the year, a club champ, all australian, popular father/son player.. ..you wont find any youngsters wanting to be part of the club if yer offing such blues pedigree..

..like it or lump it, lance needs to stay.. ..no matter how good stevens will be once he gets true midfield support, he isnt blues pedigree.. ..lance is in red hot form, he guides and inspires the team.. ..he is the next captain, in fact he should be our current one..!!.. ..the team's youth shows real potential, its better they grow into that under the guidance of lance, a blues player all his life and father/son champ.. ..its under that kind of player that the youth will discover their love and loyalty for the club..and that is what will keep them around for 10 years.. ..otherwise they will walk for cash, just like lance was made to do.. ..especially since so many clubs close to a flag would love to raid our stables..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Unfortunately you can't & won't ever predict life. Football is only ever A PART of a persons life. Many other things that can't be predicted can/will contribute to a footballers life that can/will affect there football performances.
Drafting players (even 1st rnd picks) will always contain a level of risk.

btw, I have full faith in Wayne, Paul & the rest of our recruiting team to make the right calls

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There's so much I could say...

Good logical arguments both sides of the fence regarding Whitnall as a trade prospect.

The main point that seems to have captured everyone's focus is the value Whitnall will bring to the club beyond 2006:

1. Will he continue to play at this level beyond 2006 or will he not? How many more seasons?

2. What is his value to Carlton beyond 2006 if retained?

3. If he maintains present form till the end of the season will he attract a Top 20 draft selection via trade, let alone a top 10 selection?

4. What value would we get from a Top 20 draft selection from a Whitnall trade compared to keeping Whitnall?

That's it! My thoughts to the above are as follows.

Point 1. Lance is 27 this year,and been at Carlton for 10 years, close to the end of his illustrious career with Carlton, and may have 1 maybe 2 years left beyond 2006 as an elite player. ie lucky to be the player he is now in 2 years time at 29. I believe he's always been valuable to Carlton since his debut in 1997, but injury, an ineffective game plan, and a weak midfield has been the main reason for hindering his effectiveness, and not the other way around.

Point 2. As a player, as stated 2 years max. As a leader on field 2 years max. As a leader, mentor, and likely coach (skills or team) after retiring with Carlton, 10-15 years min.

Point 3. No and I can't see where that would come from. Will not warrant a Top 20 pick in this so called super draft. If he does attract a Top 20, what is the likelihood that the draft will be a gun as required? I'd do it, because the probability of a ten year player is high, but it aint going to happen with 1-2 years left in him.

Point 4. Hopefully an extra 8 years of player availability if the draft happens to be a ten year player for us. As dannydoy stated and I agree, I wouldn't hesitate to "trade him for a Top 10 selection" Livo, Wiggins, Sporn....were all Top 20 drafts, so that's no guarantee.

On the otherhand, I consider that current squad of kids as the future, with experience and conditioning against them ATM, and for this reason alone leadership and mentoring are vital for these kids to develop and be successful in a successful Carlton team. I agree with other comments made such as..."others become better with Lance around them whether backs or forwards"; "most notable leader"(bluehammer), "1-2 years Kouta, French and Lappin will be gone, and the only natural leaders left are Stevo, Whits and Fev"(Wolfe); "the young guys look up to him" (azzablue), are all good reasons to retain him.

So there's good reasons to retain and trade, if the offer was right, but it aint gonna happen as it would have last year with Melbourne if it was to be. I think the lesson has been learnt by Essendon* having been burnt by Carlton rejects in the past 3 years(Allan, Murphy, Campo)

Without trying to offend, the points in this discussion that are really opinion based, and IMO are not relevant in this discussion (because consensus can't be reached):

"history doesn't bode well for Whitnall"

"history is not on Lance's side"

"explain how Lance is a champion"

"too slow for the modern game"

"I told you so"

"Lance did not wear the navy blue proudly each and every game" (ref to professionalism in last few years).

Verbs puts it nicely "the trouble is people are always looking so far ahead they can't apprciate what's around them"...and what I'd like to add to that is that IMO Whitnall has been a champion and a phenomena for the Carlton FC since his debut as a 17 year old. Remember his performance to get us in the GF in 1999; he could be relied on...and in 2000 he was All Australian, and now ten years later he's clearly our best player in 2006. That's a champion for mine.

He would make a fantastic coach in some form or capacity for this great club, and I'll spew if another club taps his footy brain.

As bluebull stated "Lance is Carlton", and there's no doubt in my mind that he is passionate for the navy blue; a special commodity missing in our club since most of the greats have retired.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Big Kahuna raises an interesting point..... Whitnall has probably struggled (until now????????) to come to terms with not having a good team around him, and motivating himself to raise himself to the level he was at pre 2002..... either on the park or off it.

Has something changed this season? is he more motivated now? if so... why? what was it?

These aren't rhetorical questions... I'm curious about the answers. I don't have them at my fingertips

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Love Cricket? Love me

Agree completely until these points. the Club is in a lot of trouble, no doubt, and lacks clear direction / long term plans etc.
BUT
I think the plan is to credible - some say mediocre - but I think its about playing finals again not about Premierships. they can wait until we're
back on our feet...

AND

If you believe that then lance is a key part of the story. Also Lance is a Carlton boy through and through and I don't agree that the only role Lance may have is as a draftpick, especially if I'm right about the above answer.

NB This doesn't mean I agree with the Club.

There's always an Enron or big company that can collapse out of the blue, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. Now, of course a player could suffer a nervous breakdown that can't ever be predicted... and you have to wear than on the chin as an unpredictable element.

But people make a living EVERY DAY out of making good business decisions in uncertain markets. Some are better than others, but they all get judged the same.... if you were a shit stockbroker, you couldn't say "sorry, I didn't see all those loses coming" and get away with it, especially when you if you're building a reasonably safe portfolio.

A first round pick SHOULD be a good player... a regular player. Some will be brilliant. If they're not good players, and there hasn't been an unpredictable influence like a massive injury, then someone at the club has failed.... either the development as a player or the recruiter.

Not expecting great things from recruiters with great picks is a massive cop-out and something you wouldn't tolerate in business.

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Love Cricket? Love me

Or maybe their plan or planning is so poor it looks like they're aiming to be mediocre?

Emotion is what you say we can do without but emotion is what is driving the debate. Whitnall plays well on a regular basis, emotion = happy supporters, we want to keep him. Whitnall struggles to play well on a regular basis = unhappy supporters, we don't want him.
The underlying emotion for me is that he is a risk going forward. The club needs to assess that risk v the reward of letting him go, which is also a risk.

Sheldon was Carlton through and through too.. as was Marcou...and WOW... Jezza... Peter McConville..
Is he more Carlton through and through than any of them???

at the end of the day its about whats best for the long term future of the Carlton football club...!!!

I repeat... just because he has had a very good season so far this year .. (but been crap for FOUR YEARS) does not make him un untouchable unless we have no clue what were doing.

Tell me where he will play in 2008.. 9which is when his current contract expires) just at a guess....

Where do you envisage Lance will be playing.... ??

Keep in mind we have a few defenders that are kids in the ressies. (Hartlett Bower Flint and Edwards) there are more kids being drafted this year and alot of people think Hansen would be great...) AND... we have T Bird too..

There is no room in the forward line....
We have kids to develop for the defence....

So in TWO years aged 29 what is Lance going to do???

Lets play the reality planning game and not a game of Utopia....

The truth is we should have kids pushing for defensive posts...
We have a good developing forward line...

We need midfielders...

And we need more talent to add to that young group that should be maturing in 4 years together....


If were improving as a team....what will be Lances role in that projection?

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The thing that goes straight to the top of my head as to why Lance has improved this season is the change in gameplan. Flooding slows the ball entering into the forward line and also limits the space into which his opponent can run. Lets face it he gets murdered for speed on most blokes and has only been exposed on minimal occassions this year.

if you're right, then short of a new evolution in footy strategy, Whitnall should be able to maintain his form

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Love Cricket? Love me

Synners I totally agree, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, for the last couple of years you've been spruiking about the need for LEADERS. We all agree! This club needs LEADERS!

Here we have a bloke who - while you'll say should have done it sooner and I agree - has stepped up, taken responsibility not only for his own game but for the entire team's performance and mindset. That shows a great amount of maturity and it's an in-built trait that you just can't teach someone.

Lance is now not on the massive money that he was over the past few seasons, and that's great for the club. You can tell though that the young blokes look up to him, and he's clearly - CLEARLY - the leader out there on the field. Not Kouta, not Stevens.

I'm not ruling out the prospect of getting decent picks in a trade situation, if that happens then we assess the offers versus the output Lance has given over this season and how convinced people are that he can back up again for the next few seasons.

But I just reckon that after the well founded cries for leaders over the past two years, you're pretty quick to dismiss the one bloke currently on our list that is showing exactly those qualities - and has done so in wins, close losses, and a thrashing.

Now we all believe we have some good young leaders in the ranks, obviously Marc Murphy is the first to spring to mind. But to speculate on young Messiah being a great long term leader of this club is as certain as speculating on whether Lance will revert back to "his old ways" as you call them. It's nothing more than guesswork and some phrase about a leopard.

While we have to take a long term view - you'll get no argument there - we also have to look at the pathway to getting there. Part of any journey is leadership, and here we have a bloke who is showing probably the best leadership of any player in the Navy Blue for the past 3 years, and you're dismissing that. Quite hypocritical given that's the character trait you've demanded most at the club in the past couple of years of darkness.

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Congratulations CK95