Hi SB,

More so than a 20 year old!

Now that the shit has hit the financial fan at Carlton, I believe that a great number of powerful, wealthy behind the scenes people will stand up and be counted.

Regards

Ockham

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

The club is consumed by the same lack of insight.

Sponsors and corporate supporters are screaming out for a vision and a comprehensive plan.
We are floating around in the ocean just trying to survive.
What is our plan? What are we trying to achieve on field and how consistent have we been with that objective?

Sponsors will stick with a club if they see a future. So will the members.

If we stick with a sub standard coach for 2 years because we cant afford to pay him out, they will walk.
No sponsors should be expected to tread water for 2 years because the club hasnt the capacity to remove their impediments.

They will walk and so they bloody should.

There's the reality.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Freedom of speech is vital and is the cornerstone of our society's fabric; thank god for that. But logic will tell you that a bit of common sense is needed before voicing an opinion. Freedom of speech rights have limitations though, and no where in our constitution does it imply that with this right our society condones slander of religion, race or person.

I find this petition only serves Cammo, giving him an opportunity to get real life experience exercising his right. I call it 'work experience'; usually a beneficial experience most kids enjoy in their youth. Yes, he can have his say, but he will have to also wear the consequences. Has he thought about the consequences or the cost of his action for the Carlton Football Club?

Lots of people in Australia want to vent their frustrations, but choose not to, given that they are not prepared to pay the price for an action that may well be borderline in terms of effectiveness or lawful. They are not prepared to pay the cost. What's the cost?

The cost is that Carlton's brand is being tarnished. Personally I find that all attacks on Pagan to be slanderous in nature and slanderous in content for Pagan and the Carlton FC. They are baseless, and the assumptions that their premise is based on are not related to the thoughts, experiences, challenges faced day to day since 2002 of those in the inner circle. In other words the critics are speculative and are relying on pure guess work. They are naive and therefore are offering a pathetically imbalanced view, based on opinion and not on fact.

I hate to bring up the past, but lets put it this way: in 2002 we ended on the bottom of the ladder, and no one was to know how long we would be there, and we still don't. Pagan didn't get us into this mess. He wasn't around between 2000 and 2003. That period is the catalyst for our demise. We have to accept the penalty (cost) and not look for new scapegoats, and overtime we will work our way through this. That's another thing this great country gives us; opportunity to achieve.

Sure I have difficulty with some of Pagan's decisions with rotations, flooding, the paddock and selections, but I have had personal opinions contrary to the decisions made by previous coaches as well in Brittain, Parkin, Jezza, Barassi, Nichols....but those opinions of mine are self serving and never based on the real reason for their decisions (because I didn't know all the facts), and I was aware of my bias.

Pagan is a no nonsense coach who is meticulous and has a proven record. No other coach in this country could have got us to a much higher position than where we are today, and I accept that as a result of our past failings. The cost.

I can see a good future with our current list, and obviously Cammo and some others can't (although I bet they praise our kids and see their potential in a Navy Blue jumper). But if they feel that they are right and their actions will serve Carlton well, only time will tell. Good Luck! I have an incling that the cost will be severely detrimental to Carlton's well being oth financially and to our reputation.

Facts not Fiction. Think before you act.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

can someone start a keep pagan petition? I'll vote for that.

But if he becomes a great leader it may have something to do with what he does now....

.. having said that i wouldnt sign it...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Synbad,

It may indeed, but one act alone will not make him a great leader. Success and mistakes (if you learn from them) is what makes a great leader.

Hopefully for Cammo he learns from this exercise, however, the "cost" of his petition is way too high imho.

I too would not sign his petition.

regards
Ockham

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A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

We better hope so because the last lot of so called wealthy powerful people sold the club down the drain.


but you are right you would think that they would have a better idea than a 20 year old

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

The problem I think is what type of plan can we produce, it's a stretch to think of some facts that would really be "enjoyed" by members or sponsors.
I mean the "were all about youth" and don't want Acker is a no brainer.
The obvious problem we have is, sponsors don't want to associate with a club wrongly preceived as a salary cap cheat and run like a South American dictatorship now broke and has a "the worst list in the AFL".
I 100% agree we need to address our PR and do it damn fast, but what with?
I just can't think what more the board can do, e.g off-field without a White Knight or going down this selling your soul to the devil (Demo and hotdogs) we are sadly doing?
On-field well the only was to address that quickly is to tank and or sell the silverware e.g Lance and Stevens and people rightly don't want that either.
Problems are innumerate, solutions not realistic or existent. Outwards signs of disturbance based on admirable passion but with no real solution or thought just add fuel to the "laughing stock" fire.

If he becomes a great leader, I'll run naked through the streets of Tehran carrying a US flag

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T E A M

ok, i cheated. i read the first page of this thread and then skipped to the last. pretty sure i get the idea.

has anyone mentioned a possible replacement coach?

i mean, if we sack "the menace", our financial position becomes all the weaker.

so i ask, who will coach the team for the pittance we can afford?

it may be a fine line leaving den in the hot seat for the duration, but think of the draft picks!!! woo hoo!

if any of the young champs currently coming thru stick around long enuff, this baby is going straight back to the top where we belong!

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i'll think of something funny to say later.

Mitchell, Don Pyke, Paul Hudson..........

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There's so much I could say...

Don Pyke? now there's a name.

maybe we should change the petition to "we want Pyke"!

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i'll think of something funny to say later.

.....Shaun Rhen, Michael Voss.......

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There's so much I could say...

I like Shaun Rehn. I also think John Longmire would be a good roughie. Either of those guys would be ready after 2008.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

Extremely soft, extremely weak, underhanded, lacking support. all words describing this futile attempt by cameron.

How about instead of sniping a club when it is down, we support the club when they come up with ideas like the membership "commitment drive" or supporting the club with ideas to raise money.

It is extremely soft that Cammo has decided to stay away from the ground and i am sure neither denis nor the club are actually taking an online petition seriously......think about it, wouldnt you be more concerned about a petition that was based on getting people to sign in person and then supplementary online signatures rather than a completely online petition. I also dont see why Cammo is misleading the press.....several times now it has been stated that Cameron is a University student....HOWEVER, and not that i am bagging him, but Cammo is attending TAFE on a university campus, studying year 12 again.....i have no problem with that and it doesnt matter, but at least tell the media the truth, i just think that this is showing that cammo is straying from the truth and how qualified is a year 12 student to comment on the running of a football club.....

I am very disappointed that this is in the media, but it should have been known that the media would jump all over this....it's a shame that cammo is seeking his 5 minutes of fame and the media are indulging him.

Carlton shouldnt be worried, we will rise above all this shit, and in two years when we are successful again and Pagan is still coach, we'll see if cammo is one of the little kids standing in line singing his praises.

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Back like a raging case of pubic lice

Mods, if Cammo so desires, in the interests of eveness I think he deserves a right of reply here.

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There's so much I could say...

If Pagan remains coach we will sink further and further down....He is totally passed it....Kids learn nothing from flooding and that's all Pagan is teaching them. Get rid of him real quick.....Cammo deserves a medal for being the only one that has the goulies to do it.

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Blueboy forever

All Coaches currently flood to some extent - that rationale falls to pieces, requiring all Coaches to be sacked. Sure, different Coaches use it to different extents and at different times, but maybe if our midfield was better we wouldn't be doing it as much.

Good to see you taking the moral high ground here BNZ

You look like a person of such good character

Or thats right your the leader of the Sexy Squad - I Forgot

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Fellow Carltonians,

I must applaud both Ockhams Razor and Bondi Blue. Both make well founded points. I myself am only twenty four. And if I decide to look back almost five years ago I see a very different person (One who had no idea about responsibilty or life). There is no way on this earth any twenty year old can give sound advice on the running of a twenty millon dollar business or AFL football team. I'm trying to find some compassion for Cammo but there is none except for the empathy we share for the current state of our beloved baggers. Someone trying to finish puberty while still at school doesn't have the life experience to give advice on such a topic. I like to think that everyone understands that whether we had of employed Jeans, Sheedy, or Matthews the results would have been very similar. We should be honoured to have a coach with the credentials of Denis Pagan. His runs are on the board and as a naive twenty four year old I can see that there is much work to be done. Cammo grow up and recognise that aside from the mess you will be creating for the Carlton Football Club - you are directly affecting certain individuals and their families. I'm not just refering to Pagan either. Think about the repercussions involved on a grand scale. Let the man do his job. Let it be the Collingwood and Essendon* supporters who put us down and not our own blood. Anyone who is backing Cammo and his stupid petition should hand in their memberships and look for another team to follow. If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem. Although it may not totally apply it was once said to me that in order to see the sun in a solar eclipse you must first embrace the darkness of the moon. If we intend to go forward then we must cop our missfortunes on the chin first. If someone started a petition to keep Pagan I would sign it.