piss off

gee, maybe you guys are on something

_________________
Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

excellent point BV

we dont agree on much, but im with you on this.

_________________
Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

To be honest Prez,

You seem like a well grounded individual. If what you said in your earlier post is true then you're also well accomplished. But I gripe isn't with you. Its with - And I mention once more.... This twenty year old kid making a conscience decission to achive betterment for the club not looking at the possible outocomes of his actions. Becuase he feels a certain way his is putting imense pressure on a playing group as well as the coaching staff. Regardless of whether Pagan is up to it or not. There cetain ways to deliver a message. Cammo is suggesting to all the Carlton board, employees and players that his idea is better than theirs. The simple action of starting that website tells me along with others that he believes in his mind that he has the solution to our problems. At twenty years of age you have very little concept on honour and respect. In order to be heard you must first lead by the front. All I have is some kid taking it upon himself to create more unrest for a club that I hold dear to my own heart. I've met Denis Pagan and I can tell you first hand without even knowing who he is.... You'll respect him. He wouldn't have a problem with his players respecting him. I can promise you that. Then you have this kid going to extroardinary lengths to have him sacked. What does Cammo know about running a club or a team? If you are going to insult someone publically then at least be in a position to do so. One other thing. You mentioned Neil Craig before and Clarckson. Neither of these guys had draft penalties to contend with. More over both of them work for very rich football clubs. Especially Craig.

Prez,

if you have a chance re-read my post. I'm not dismissing him simply because of his age, I'm dismissing what he is doing because of the lack of experience he has as a result of his age.

There is a difference - it may be subtle but there is a difference.

regards

Ockham

_________________
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

No it's not.

The constitution of the club clearly states that, with the right number of signatures on a petition, a meeting can be held to elect a new President.

It says nothing about petitions to remove the coach.

One is exercising a legal right as a member... the other is exercising a right to be a nuisance.

_________________
If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

i dont disagree with that, but it has been small things that i havent liked about Pagan. For me, he HAS been a great coach, you dont win two premierships if you are a muppet, but that is the point isnt it, he has.

IMO i no longer think he is the right person for the job for our club with our current player stock, maybe another time, with other players he would have been a wonderful coach, but at the moment i think we would be better served with someone else.

who, i really have no issue with giving Mitchell a shot.

but again, i must pull you up on one thing.



i couldnt disagree with this statement more if i tried.

tell that to the 16 year old boys that lied about their age to join wars in the past. couldnt disagree more.

sure, honour and respect is a fading thing in society and that is probably the saddest thing about the world today IMO, but that is discussion for another topic.

but i couldnt disagree more with that statement.

_________________
Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

I don't think it's up to Cammo

He was removed from this site twice because of his inability to argue his side without insulting people, despite numerous warnings. Why would this be any different?

In fact, given the emotion attached to it (especially from his perspective) him coming back to join in what has been a very healthy discussion, would, in my opinion, result him over-stepping the line way more than he has done in the past.

If you want his personal opinion on this, there's nothing stopping anyone going to his website.

_________________
If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

bollox

what other avenue do supporters have to complain about the coach.

you guys need to get past what you think the petition is about.

Its about letting the club and its board no that there are members that are not happy with the current coach, nothing more, nothing less.

it is not a demand for the club to fire him immediately, it is informing the club that there are members that are not happy with the current coach.

it is up to the board to do with that infomation what they will.

_________________
Got to love the stare Down by Setanta on Llyod

We're talking about running a multi million dollar business ... and coaching 40 young men - how many 20 year olds have you seen that are able to both of these things, let alone one.

Quite frankly, change for the sake of change without considering the impacts is a childish reaction, befitting the age of the author of the petition.

_________________
In WADA we trust

I think that lack of experience shows in one crucial way. Before running a petition, most people with experience would have run the numbers first, and made sure that they had the numbers to be successful.

The polls on the forums suggested that at most, 25% of us supported the petition. If that's true he might struggle to get the numbers to make the petition count for anything.

And the important point is this, some of the people who don't support the petition, also don't support Pagan, but believe that this is either the wrong time or the wrong way of effecting change.

If Cammo's petition isn't well supported, the club will infer support for Pagan, and that might be a distorted view. And I'm not saying that to try and scare people into signing, I'm not signing either, but by acting prematurely it actually lengthens the amount of time that anybody else could try and pursue a similar petition.

The guy has every right to host a vehicle for people's frustrations, especially given the way we're going. It's called a democracy. He has an opinion like everyone else and if you don't like it don't sign it. If you agree with the petition then sign it. You guys don't know the guy so let's leave the character assasinations, that could well be way off the mark, out of it. You either do or you don't . At least he has the balls to do something about our situation irrespective of what affect it has.

Terrifically insightful post Jim,

Take action no matter what the consequences

_________________
A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in.

Bollocks not!

Don't we elect a board to run the club for us? We don't elect a board to sit and wait for our opinion issues via a petition.

Or should we push for that to be added to our MOA?

I really can't see how people don't think that this petition makes us look like less of a rabble - aren't we the same people that laugh at Richmond when they do things like this? I think we're doing more damage to the club with crap like this, than any kind of negative coaching strategy will have on it.

I didn't vote for Cammo to be on the board. I voted for the board who are currently there to do the job... my job as a member is to support, and that's what I'll be doing. If I wanted to make a difference to the club's day to day decision making, then I'd run for the board - I wouldn't be riling up emotion turning supporting factions on each other in our time of need.

_________________
If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

I have never quite seen the necessity for all this 'we are a democracy' petition stuff when you can always write to/email the club or coach & state your membership number.

However, as I have said before, I've gradually lost interest in Cammo's petition.

_________________
#DonTheStash

There's nothing stopping you from starting an online petition in a Dictatorship these days... yep totally irrelevant!

_________________
If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

I don't think Cammo has any intention of coaching the side. He, like alot of others, me included, just wants to see some change, hence some progress, which we haven't had for years and is now being reflected in the membership. If the club was highly commited but finished bottom I'm sure people would still buy memberships but given they've been an uncommitted rabble over the last 3 years then people simple won't invest their hard-earned. Like anyone, they want value for money, in this case a fair dinkum effort. Don't care what Pagan's record was at North, we have gone no-wehere in 3 years and become a rabble. That's the only record I'm interested in.

We were a rabble that hadn't bottomed out when he took over... We're now in much better shape than we were then.

We've been beaten badly in 5 of 28 quarters of football this year... perspective and patience are what we need... unfortunately that doesn't look good on a bumper sticker.

_________________
If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

It's true, if you don't like don't sign it, that's you're right, stop grizzling about it. It's your choice. As it's his right to run a petition. How friggin' insightful do you want me, or need me, or anyone else to be. We don't really need the character assasination of Cammo.

Who's assassinated his character??

_________________
#DonTheStash

Some of the thoughts about this petition are mind boggling.

I dont agree with the petition or it gaining sensationalist press but some of the reactions are over the top.

For the author to be threatened physically is far more of an indictment on Carlton supporters than the petition itself.
And for some supporters to think they are a more valuable supporter or member than Cammo or any of his supporters is pathetic as well.



Disagree Wolfy.
If Pagan is shown to be a sub standard coach, the impact on our club will impact far more than a petty petition.
We have arguably the best group of young players at our club in its history.
If that is compromised, it will be a disgrace.

As for how this petition makes us look.
Onfield success is the only thing that will repair our image.
We are convicted salary cap cheats who are begging to the AFL for money.
Do you really believe we have any great reputation to protect?

Lets move forward without worrying how our neighbours percieve us.
I'd rather be feared on field and hated any day.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.