Hang on a second Jim.... Mate through you mates (Cammo's) actions we are now more of a laughing stock. How do you expect the players to react to this? What. Did you think that this was just going to blow over. I'd expect my little five year old cousin to make stupid mistakes like this. Don't condone this idiots actions or character when he is directly effecting our football club that we all love. To boot a lot of supporters still have faith in the club and Pagan becuase of the limitations he's had with draft choices. So theres no need to be insightful. The only thing needed is common sense and a little composure.

Rubbis. How pathetically uncommitted were we last yea with all those flhoggings. A major reason why memberships are down 20%. Our list isn't that bad to going as we are. How many years of patience do you want? We should have had some progression by now, but we haven't. not hard to see.

Read the posts.

Well said

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"Whoever said you can't buy happiness forgot about puppies." - Gene Hill

He feels strongly enough, and not without good reason, he has every right to start a petition. Been petitions in this world from the year dot on a multitude of subjects, are they all stupid?! Who cares what people think. If you don't like it don't sign it.

Jim if you're referring to the age argument, it's hardly a character assasination…wether you agree with it or not.

If there has been a more hurtful or personal attack on cammo posted here, I must have missed it.

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#DonTheStash

When Pagan arrived at Carlton not only did Pagan have an aging list but he had to destroy a culture that resembled the St.Kilda culture of the 1980's.

I look forward to the day when Pagan releases a book on his career and tells everyone what he actually did inherit when he arrived at Carlton. It will be very interesting reading.

Now that he has cleared a lot of dead wood and continues to skill up the kids people want him to go. The hard part is complete and now only time is against us.

Who was leading Carlton when the bad eggs were at the club.....NOT PAGAN!!! Mitchell and Kernahan were there. Why do these guys escape criticism?

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Delulio is a member of TISM

A hell of a lot of the people on this site that are calling for Pagan's head, were the same that were calling for us to throw games last year for draft picks... you just can't win with some supporters.

I agree that our list isn't that bad, and that's why we've been more than competitive in 23 of 28 quarters this year... but for a couple of kicks we'd be 4 and 3.

BV is spot on saying that onfield success is going to get us respect - and applying a more attacking game plan with the current game plan got us nothing but flogged last year... now Pagan does something to turn that around, and has had some early (yet sporadic) success with that game plan so far with the youngest list in the league... I believe that we owe him a hell of a lot more patience. If, in 2 years time, we're still having this same debate, then the time would be right - but at the moment we're building a side solely around 5 teenagers, a full forward and a much maligned CHF in the backline... that's going to take time! As they say Rome wasn't built in a day... and they still haven't built a footy team yet!

As for the side issue of Cammo and his "character assignation".... read some of his posts on this site... he did a pretty good job of assonating his own character!

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If meat is murder then yoghurt must be burglary
GO YOU BIG RED FIRE ENGINE
Move aside Kouta, Lance etc - you're holding us back... from entering the under 18s

DIAMOTISM - please, share with us your infinite wisdom as to why Sticks and Mitchell earn your wrath, nice sniping do you have a matching uniform?

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

Fair enough he had an ageing list he had to clear the dead wood he done that two to three years ago ..

Why are we worse than last year . That the question most people dont seem to understand - There is no improvement the club is not moving forward .

That is all everyone is asking if this petition puts a rocket up the arses of the people in charge of the football club well good on it .

We cant keep continually using the same old bloody piss weak excuses for our lack of improvement for ever..

Every bloody time Pagan mentions those draft picks and mentions Goodard and Wells I feel like jumping through the televsion set and grabbing by the scruff of the neck and telling him to get over it .

When someone brings them up to him he should say we dont need them we got fisher and simpson - back his own players not moan about who he hasn't got.

If this petition sends a message well bloody good on it I say

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I am quite satisfied with the improvement the team has shown so far this year, ok we got smacked by the Pies a couple of weeks ago but most teams will get soundly beaten some time this year

The team is in much better shape this year than last

Lets face it who could do a better job than Pagan with what he inherited as far as the conditions of the clubs training facilities, restrictions in the draft ect ect ect

Everyone has a right to express thier view on this matter and thats fine but to me Pagos not doing that bad a job

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A macfart a day helps you work rest and play

What gives you the idea we don't know Cammo?

You've got to be kidding....we know him too well.....and not just on this site either.

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

I think cammo has been politically naive with the manner in which he has handled this petition.

Firstly if he wanted to gauge the mood of the supporter base and present an effective petition he needs to appeal to as many of those supporter with doubts about Pagan as possible.

Now with an online petition started early in the season those supporters who know of the petition have galvanised their positions. Most of these timing issues have largely been covered though.

Also, the petition itself is actually quite complex and multi-faceted which may on the surface seem OK, but politically it will reduce the effectiveness of the petition, because there are so many points, a smaller % of the supporting population will agree with every point and sign as opposed to a more simple petition that would appeal to a broader cross-section.

In fact the petition may backfire.

If at the end of this process all Cammo has after getting multiple articles written in the paper and furious discussion on the boards is just a few hundred dodgy 'internet' signings and no real signatures. If someone from the club observes this end result they may interpret it to mean that there is little dissafection with Pagan, but in reality all that may have happened is a fracturing of those against Pagan such as those who are prepared to wait to the end of the year for a hard assessment of Pagan who refused to sign, therefore the petition actually under-represents the true sentiments of supporters.

Again, a failed petition may actually take the heat off Pagan to a certain extent at the end of the year if the club interprets it as little dissent against Pagan.

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Definitely no sniping intended. My question is….Why do Mitchell and Kernahan get no flack from supporters considering they were at our club when it was great and when it hit rock bottom.

If I answered my own question it would be because:
- Kernahan is a Carlton legend and he is a Carlton man!!!
- Mitchell is winning games as a coach because he has better ordinary AFL players than most VFL sides therefore people think he is a good coach.

Pagan isn't a Carlton man and not winning games therefore is an easy scapegoat.

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Delulio is a member of TISM

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Why dont you tell him how to do it properly then - Then we might get the right result we are looking for

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Sydney,

I don't want to have a dig at you personally but like a lot of other supporters you see the small picture and not the big one. Think about the players if not for Pagan. If we as the supporter base keep drumming into their minds that we don't think that their coach is up to scratch then they'll eventually begin to believe it and we won't see any improvement at all. Regardless of whether of whether he is the best persona for the job or not, (I think he is) we don't have the money to get rid of him. It will hurt us if we paid out his contract on so many different levels. There are still a lot of supporters who like Pagan and show empathy for him. And then theres you guys and Cammo. Just allow the man work and do what his been doing for a long time. He'll get the results. It just takes a little time.

Not a problem.

For $150 an hour .... no problem.

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Your cheap

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Mates rates.

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