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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:51 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

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I think my thoughts on Denis are reasonably well known on this site but I dont criticise for the sake of it.
I've given Denis credit for trying to reinvent himself. He's accepted (or been told to accept) that his philosophies on football must change and full credit to him for doing so.
I still think he has hindered the creative development of the players and I believe we are seeing the results of that now but I credit him for accepting he needs to change, even if it is too late.

But I must say, I thought the efforts that came from our coaching panel for Sundays game was disgraceful.
Not on the day neccesarily but the way we played St Kilda was abysmal.

I know some posters question the short kicking or the long kicking but IMHO the problem was our system of play.

St Kilda play a floating zone type set up. They play a skeleton forward line (usually 3 or 4 man) and set the extra players in a zone 30-70 metres off the ball.
It's not brain surgery if I can figure it out, in fact I wrote about their gamestyle and how to beat it 2 years ago on TBV.

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In my humble opinion, the Saints play a floating set up not dissimilar to rugby league.
They create a zone 30-60 metres defensive side of the play, a floating flood in simple terms.
They play a 4 man forward structure and place the 2 remaining forwards defensive side of the contest.
Most of their stoppages are set up on the defensive side and the rucks are instructed to place the ball there, similar to Brisbane.

For this structure to work requires 2 main ingredients.
1. Hold up the opposition at all costs when they win disposal.
2. A constant bench rotation as this gameplan requires maximum output from the midfielders.

Their requirement is to run hard when the Saints win possession but to reset the zone if the opposition win the ball. Hence the requirement to hold up the opposition.
Carlton fell into the trap beautifully. We played stop start football and kicked to the contest.
Exactly what the Saints gameplan wants.

How is it beaten?
Teams must go into the game with 2 main objectives and tactical requirements.
Objective 1.
Play on at all costs.
The best way to counter the Saints is to move the ball as quickly as possible. The ball moves faster than the players get back.
Run past at all costs if marks or free kicks are paid to keep the ball moving.
Objective 2.
Maintain possession.
The Swans are experts at this and the Bullies were adequate at it.
If the ball cant be moved quickly which will happen often, dont kick long to the contest.
Players ahead of the play must lead at the player in possession and the short passes must be utilised. This must be continued until a player is in space and in a position to kick long over the zone.

Tactics.
The Saints are very one paced in the midfield and try to get the ball to their wingers at every opportunity.
Black and DelSanto are the targets for handball recieves similar to how Brisbane utilise Power.
More than 50% of Luke Powers stats would be handball recieves, mostly from Simon Black.
DelSanto and Black must be matched with accountable runners.

Be willing to adapt. Teams should play 4-5 man forward lines and place extra players around the contest as much as possible.
A 3 quarter ground squeeze will congest the flood and unsettle the Saints structure.
The Swans played man on man as much as possible and most importantly, every Swans player except Leo Barry was defensive side of his opponent at all times.

The one glaring statistic is the teams that have defeated St Kilda have maintained possession and have finished with more possessions than the Saints.
Dont be afraid to overpossess backward of centre if you cant fast break.
The key is to break up the the flood forward of centre half forward so the forward line is kept open.

Apologies if I have waffled


They let you have the ball and use numbers to win it back and rush forward.
The best way to counter this tactic is to utilise your free players off half back and run the ball. The backs must run with the ball carrier or offer short options to move the ball forward.
Going laterally does very little as you cannot go around the zone.
The only way is to run the ball at their zone and kick over it or slowly bring the ball up and dissect the zone with short passes.
You need smart players (ie. Whitnall)at H/F to offer up leads toward the ball carrier.

The most important facet is not to kick the ball to the contest within their zone.

Amazingly the only goal was scored in the first quarter was from our ruckman having the brains to do this.
From memory Murphy recieved the ball off half back, switched it to Wiggins who had DELUCA ruuning past for the handball. DeLuca carried the ball to the zone and kicked over it to Fevola on the lead.

The players must be trained, instructed and drilled to run in numbers and to share the ball until an option presents.
The forwards must be instructed to run at the ball carrier and to lead in varying directions to break up the zone.

To back this up, I'll give you some simple stats from Sundays first quarter.

Carlton had complete control of the ball in St Kildas forward line 12 times.
We got the ball inside 40 metres from 4 of those occasions for 2 scoring shots.
St Kilda scored 10 of their 14 scoring shots from Carlton giving up the ball after having unhindered possession in our backline!

You can blame the backs but I thought they were very good in the first quarter.
The midfielders were beaten for one of the few times this year but they had a crack.
We were beaten purely on our ability to counter a basic game style.

Grant Thomas must have thought it was Groundhog Day.
I believe the past 4 times we have played St Kilda we are averaging 90 pint losses.
What would you expect. If the same tactic didnt work last time, or the time before, or the time before, odds are you're in the shit this time.

The days are past of players going out and giving everything they have and the rest takes care of itself.
You have to tactically alter your game to counter differing opposition.
Just moving player A from the wing to the back pocket doesnt cut it anymore.
The Saints gave the ball to us and waited for us to give it back.
The same as Port did in the practice match.

Same tactic. Same inept response. Same result.

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 1:55 pm 
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Wayne Johnston
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Quote:
Fevola reaffirmed his and the players' support for senior coach, Denis Pagan.

"He's got no worries, Denis," Fevola said.

"Denis is Denis and I don't think he's got a worry in the world. The boys love him and we love the way he coaches and the way he communicates with the boys."

"I think everyone's behind him 100 per cent."

http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=267935

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:02 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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BV you should email that to Pagan…he'd have to respond & it would be very interesting to see how.

What's to lose?

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:03 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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Why create another thread regarding Denis please merge any thread with the word Denis in it we will save time looking through the crap threads :garthp:


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:06 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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It's about tactics in this particular game though Blueboy. Have it your way & we'd have a 150 page thread covering 20 different subtopics...

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:09 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Depressing read.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:09 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Excellent post BV.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:11 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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POY

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:15 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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CK95 wrote:
It's about tactics in this particular game though Blueboy. Have it your way & we'd have a 150 page thread covering 20 different subtopics...


Instead we have 150 threads covering the same thing. I have read the thread and it is very imformative all im saying if you want to bag the coach put it in one thread.

Just like we have talking players we might need a talking coaches. Its a deppressing time at the moment and alot of people want to have there say and im for it.

But we shouldnt turn this site in to doom and gloom. All the good stories get lost in the denis bashing threads.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:18 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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blueboy8 wrote:
CK95 wrote:
It's about tactics in this particular game though Blueboy. Have it your way & we'd have a 150 page thread covering 20 different subtopics...


Instead we have 150 threads covering the same thing. I have read the thread and it is very imformative all im saying if you want to bag the coach put it in one thread.

Just like we have talking players we might need a talking coaches. Its a deppressing time at the moment and alot of people want to have there say and im for it.

But we shouldnt turn this site in to doom and gloom. All the good stories get lost in the denis bashing threads.


:glad you're not a moderator:

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:18 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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CK95 wrote:
BV you should email that to Pagan…he'd have to respond & it would be very interesting to see how.

What's to lose?


I already have and below is his response


I just dont know what goes on in young players minds
We praticed it at training I suppose that what you get when you got a young team.

Nobody knows what we've been through

We discussed this with the players and they came up with the same answers as we did

Give me draft picks and I,ll give you wins

We are trying to teach them to play four quarters of football

there are no superstars in the closet at Royal Parade rest assured we have looked for them

We just butchered the ball

I just look at Wells and Goddard and whoever anf think gosh they would have made a difference out there.

This coaching is a funny caper a few years back I could sit back and have a Cup of coffee and watch it all unfold

we are taking small steps forward - did mention we are a young side

We are all working very hard

Brendan he was just sensational out there today

I wish I had two Lances

We need bigger bodies

I'll guess will have to go back an have another look at it we had come along way and been competitive in most games we thought we were over this

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Last edited by Sydney Blue on Tue May 23, 2006 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:22 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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BV you are amazing the way you do that. What a waste - you need to send this to Pagan and get a response.

Whilst in theory the gameplan, tactics appear easy do you think that we have a group of players capable of executing gameplans to counter the opposition?

I've mentioned this before but I reckon opposition coaches love to coach against Pagan. Tactically they are not streched by Pagan.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:29 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Sydney Blue wrote:
CK95 wrote:
BV you should email that to Pagan…he'd have to respond & it would be very interesting to see how.

What's to lose?


I already have a below is his response


I just dont know what goes on in young players minds
We praticed it at training I suppose that what you get when you got a young team.

Nobody knows what we've been through

We discussed this with the players and they came up with the same answers as we did

Give draft picks I give you wins

We are trying to teach them to play four quarters of football

there are no superstars in the closet at Royal Parade rest assured we have looked for them

We just butchered the ball

I just look at Wells and Goddard and whoever anf think gosh they would have made a difference out there.

This coaching is a funny caper a few years back I could sit back and have a Cup of coffee and watch it all unfold

we are taking small steps forward - did mention we are a young side

We are all working very hard

Brendan he was just sensational out there today

I wish I had two Lances

We need bigger bodies

I'll guess will have to go back an have another look at it we had come along way and been competitive in most games we thought we were over this


No need to listen to another Pagan interview all year. :)

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:32 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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BV for coach - president and game day tactician

Brilliant stuff BV

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:33 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Sydney Blue wrote:
CK95 wrote:
BV you should email that to Pagan…he'd have to respond & it would be very interesting to see how.

What's to lose?


I already have a below is his response


I just dont know what goes on in young players minds
We praticed it at training I suppose that what you get when you got a young team.

Nobody knows what we've been through

We discussed this with the players and they came up with the same answers as we did

Give draft picks I give you wins

We are trying to teach them to play four quarters of football

there are no superstars in the closet at Royal Parade rest assured we have looked for them

We just butchered the ball

I just look at Wells and Goddard and whoever anf think gosh they would have made a difference out there.

This coaching is a funny caper a few years back I could sit back and have a Cup of coffee and watch it all unfold

we are taking small steps forward - did mention we are a young side

We are all working very hard

Brendan he was just sensational out there today

I wish I had two Lances

We need bigger bodies

I'll guess will have to go back an have another look at it we had come along way and been competitive in most games we thought we were over this


BV and SB post POW

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 2:38 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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good work BV

and spot on as well

i wasnt aware of the tactic in regards rugby league but it was certainly obvious to even those that have any sort of knowledge about the game what was happening and time and time again we failed to act.

but i must say, as much as the coach needs to answer this, the players also have a responsibility to think of this as well, but i suppose that ability to react by the players in instilled into them during the weeks training prior to the game.

i watched some of the tigers v adelaide game - and i hated the game, but thought it was a very well coached game - hated the tactics and the display itself, but was very well coached and the plan the coach had set the players executed perfectly.

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:04 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Good read BV but I'm still not convinced that there should be a "It's all Pagan's fault" bandwagon.

I agree on the Saints forward structure although they've tinkered the plays a little bit with Riewoldt becoming the focus, which was a smart play and should be in place as their first choice setup, not second.

Haven't had a fair dinkum watch of the Saints defensive set ups behind the ball so it might be worth a watch when coverage of their games allows it.

I might go watch Adelaide's games this year in the coming days and have a crack myself.


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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:08 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Interestingly St Kilda average the most kicks backwards of any team in the comp - last weekend we played their game (kicked it backwards way more thna them) and they went long.

And Alves made a point - he said that St Kilda's strengths are our weaknesses (ie strong bodies, marking forwards skill with the pill) while their weaknesses are not our strengths ( I assume speed and Ruckwork).

When will we plan according to opposition instead of our players. It's like taking too many talls to Subie. You must take extra midfielders - do we, ever?

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:08 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Great post BV and I also encourage you to send it to the coach.

There are 2 sides to every story though. I cant imagine that even with a flawed game plan, the players are executing what they have learned. The hallmark of the Kangas under pagan was players such as King running with the ball and players running in to space. Our players seem to think running is unnecessary. I cant imagine any coach instructing players to be as idle as ours were.
I think dropping the likes of Deluca, McGrath, etc etc doesnt convey any message. You cant drop Kouta cos it would destabilise the team further but he needs to spend some time on the pine and I mean 50 or so min to think things over and watch the team in action.
You need to send a message to the players. I would drop lappin. That would all on notice that certain things are expected from each of them. Running, chasing, tackling, blocking, sheparding arent just 1%ers. They are bread and butter. That is what you are expected to do. You shouldnt expect kudos for doing what you are contarcted for.

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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2006 3:17 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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budzy wrote:
Quote:
Fevola reaffirmed his and the players' support for senior coach, Denis Pagan.

"He's got no worries, Denis," Fevola said.

"Denis is Denis and I don't think he's got a worry in the world. The boys love him and we love the way he coaches and the way he communicates with the boys."

"I think everyone's behind him 100 per cent."

http://carltonfc.com.au/default.asp?pg= ... eid=267935
They do the same in politics too........talk the "party line".


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