Be realistic. where do you get 10 or 12-13 to replace them. You just won't find that much quality around in one hit. Unless you change the main problem, Pagan, it will the Titanic and the deck-chair theory (again), and we'll be here next year saying " who will we chop".....and probably again the year after too!

Jim i understand whereyou arecoming from and it might be a big ask. But i have attached below my post from elsewhere here that explains the 12-13. Pagan might be part of the problem, but the bigger problem is those who run the club being to scared to say Enough is Enough. But its only my opinion....

Here's the part of the post.

Names such as Bryan, Chambers, Longmuir, Prenda, Teague. No point having them if you're not playing them. ( MC/Coach thinks not up to it ). So bye bye to them, i'm suggesting, and guessing, gone.

Now we have the guys who maybe just maybe might be able to find new homes... Sporn, Davies, Wiggins( great effort today though ) and Livo.. But what do we really expect we'd get for them ? Not a great deal, some 3 rounders in the draft at best maybe, or absolutely nothing..

Which brings me to the next group of players who might just be better off moved on, for the benefit of the club. Deluca, Houla, Fisher , Bentick and Lance.

Now i'm not advocating that we trade the above, with the exception of Deluca, (if he holds any currency at all)..
BUT how do we make improvements to our list without giving up something.

Deluca, might just make it one day, but we can't afford to carry him. Deluca on a better list becomes a better player, and i think Geelong would be an ideal place for Archie.

Houla well in order to get something you need to give something. Houla fits this mould, His silky skills would be greatly appreciated at a stronger club. Collingwood, or even St Kilda would suit Houla.. ( I Say St Kilda as they traded for Fiora and Houla IMO is a better player than Fiora )

Fisher is proving to be injury prone and although i am a fan of his, i think that with Fev, Waite and Kennedy we have our bases covered in the front half. A tough call but our club needs to make tough calls.

AB , well the guy does try and does go in and under to get the pill. But i think in the long term if the club is committed to Blackwell and Murphy then he is one onballer young enough to be snapped up by another club. Again in order to get something we need to give.

Lance, well Lance , lance lance. You are not only one of our best this year, but you are also our Prized Jewell in trade bait. Do we trade you ?? Tough call super tough call. And no matter what pro and anti Lance people say here, i'd be happy if he stayed and equally happy if we traded him. But he would get us a first rounder...

So all up, we look at turning over a total of 12/13 Players ( Lance the debatable one ).

13 Players... Mmmmmm....

But will it be enough to reshape our list ? and if we do go down the hardline and do it , how long do we think it will take for this club to really start stringing wins together? How long before we are at least consistently competitive.

I personally think that the time has come for this club to set a standard. Our list has to change, players have to go ( Stating the obvious again ) and if this does not change our fortunes come Pagans contract renewal, Pagan will go down as our favourite waste of time.. Boot To Pagan and bring in " The Real Supercoach " ( Who knows who that will be ? )

But if we don't see a turn in fortunes with the reshaping of our list, we'll be able to move Pagan on also. If Pagan can't turn a new list around then he does not deserve to be coaching. The true test for Pagan is not just now, but what happens through this contract.

And we think our problems are our fininacials ...Don't kid yourself this club currently lacks Leadership, Character and Real direction with purpose. Primarily because we have too many passengers.

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

Basically load up on kids, as Synbad and many others mention .Amongst the kids we hope we dicover a few, and develop a few, and yes some will just not cut it too... But all at a very cheap price whilst only on 2 year contracts so we can keep turning them over as we keep developing the "good Ones"

It might be 13 now then next year 5 and the year after another 5. I'm assuming that in 3 years time our list will look pretty sharp... The Axe must fall. Enough is Enough...

isn't it ??

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

It's not quite as difficult as what you're saying jim but I do agree to an extent.

Hypothetical:
Elevate Flint, Batson, Aisake
Delist 8 players
Four picks in the draft, 1 in the PSD

Not much in a deep draft.

So we're looking at chopping anywhere between 6 and 11 players if we want to have a bit of leeway with all the promoting of the following draft being pretty good too.

This time last year, the same threads popped up with the same players names, ex-Kouta and ex-Saddington, for obvious reasons.

I think our failure to do anything at the end of last year was an appalling mistake. There is no point having a good VFL team if you aren't developing a group of aspiring replacements for the main game - the AFL team. Its a blight on us that the Bullants are a) going OK and b) their best players are those who've played 40+ games of AFL over 5-7 years.

unless the club deemed last year's draft as not deep enough (2 years to players drafted?) whereas this year the draft is said to go far deeper, it might be smart to have waited until this year and then cull deep and draft deeper.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I can't agree that it is smart to have 5-7 players going nowhere on your list at any point in time, regardless of contracting.

But if we super-loaded up on kids last year instead of having a heap of sackable players to make way for this years superdraft we would have a heap of unsackable kids because they must be put on 2 year contracts and cannot be removed from the list for those 2 years.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

So be it. We would tend to give even the worst kids 2 years anyway. The way its panned out, we arent even in a position to promote a rookie as they've been playing thirds - are we preparing a list for our next finals tilt or not?

ps You're needed at home, buddy. Home = Blueseum!

Bullants last week had 12 AFL listed players against a team with not ONE Afl listed player and we managed to win by a few goals - say no more!!!

The only two players from last weeks Bullants game that should be playing in the seniors are Setanta. Setanta should replace Saddington. Russell, we need to see if he is up to it.

The rest are not up to it - simple.

It was said pre season that our best team on the park will be competitive however if we get a few injuries we will struggle big time. We have upto 10 lsited players that would not get a game in any other team.

10 players get the chop.... an easy job... we won't miss a single one

6 kids in the draft

3 rookie elevations - Batson, Smith and O'hAilpin .. if he has to be... if not, keep him as a rookie and promote one of Flint/Jackson

1 PSD pick

EASY AS

DELIST TEAGUE AND PAY HIM OUT. PAY OUT AND DELIST ANY USELESS HACK.... KEEPING A GUY YOU KNOW TO BE A HACK ONLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T WANT TO PAY HIM OUT IS SHOCKING MANAGEMENT

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Love Cricket? Love me

Why was Teague given a 2 year contract when it's been obvious from the first intra club practice matches that he's not in our best 22 any more? Livo was only given one and he's in a similar position.

At seasons end we need to do the following:

- use our first draft pick on a midfielder
- use our second pick on a ruckman
- 3rd pick on Sam Sheldon if he is good value, otherwise draft another ruckman.


Delist all players who are out of contract and have no future.

Don't trade players we can't afford to lose i.e. Fev, Lance and Stevens. Lance and Stevo may not be around for our next tilt at the flag, however if we lose them we won't win ANY games the following season and some of our quality youngsters may want to leave the club. Also they won't have any quality senior players to learn from.

Unfortunately there are no quick fixes to our problem. Patience and commonsense is required.

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There is no footy god

My logic would suggest that Teague has won a B&F and Livo did not. My logic would also suggest that Teague's contract was / had to be signed way before the first intra club practice match. My logic suggests that Livo is more injury prone than Teague.

The club needs to be careful with its rookie elevations. There may not necessarily be any at the end of the year.

Aisake - as an international rookie, the club has the option of keeping him on the rookie list for a 3rd year (apparently?). Given he is yet to crack a game for the Bullants 1sts, then he should not be a candidate for promotion and should continue to develop on the rookie list. He offers great hope but still has a long way to go.
Batson - similar to Aisake except the club need to decide at years end whether he stays or goes. Still in the Ants 2nds. Daniel's promotion and retention will impact on our drafting choices. We keep him, we can lean towards KP and mids as recruits. We dont, then a ruckman would be appropriate to select in the national draft. I reckon he needs to improve considerably to have a chance. Is not in the best of form ATM.
Jesse Smith - I dont think he will be retained. Isn't starring and in a similar mould to Bentick who is being found out in AFL for lack of pace. We simply dont need another slow mid. Unless he shows incredible progress and overtakes Bentick in the pecking order, then he will probably get the chop.
Flint - Has been very promising but still in his 1st year as rookie. However, if he keeps going well like he has I think he is 1st in line for promotion. Continues his form then I think he will be elevated.
Jackson - Doing very well in the Ants 2nds, however, that is a long way from a senior list spot. I reckon he will get his 1st chance soon to play for the Ants seniors (given our growing injury list) and then we can see how he goes. I dont think he will be a candidate for elevation given its his 1st year as a rookie and is yet to make a genuine statement with the Ants.

So given the above prognosis, only one elevation under current circumstances.

The delistings for mine (regardless of contracts)
- Livingston (sorry Luke )
- Teague
- Davies
- Bannister
- Bryan
- Chambers
- Longmuir
- McGrath (has been found out this year)
- Prendergast
- Sporn
- Koutoufides (retirement)

Therefore, unless some of these players are traded for other players, it leaves us with 9 national draft picks, 1 PSD and 4 rookie picks. And the rebuilding begins in earnest!

Deluca stays only because of his contract PLUS the fact the DP loves the bloke. Sam Sheldon wont be considered for this years draft. Is injured ATM and off the pace and is still underage. If anyone is considered it will be Tomi Johnston and it appears that he is not worth a 3rd round at this stage.

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C'mon Blueboys!

Why would any club want a player who isn't good enough to get a game in the worst club in recent history?

Agree marci. Aisake is very promising, but has miles to go. Needs to learn to demand the ball and use his athleticism, but big tick to Gary D for teaching A how to palm the ball. There is no hussry with him. Another year as a rookie, then elevation and development and the new prototype ruckman in 2009 when we are getting a decent side together.

I like Batson, I like his leadership in the 2s, but if he can't get a game in the Ants 1s he is gone. I'd love him to develop into a good big man as he seems to have other positive qualities, but he doesn't even ruck in the Ants 2s. And jessie Smith struggles for pace.

With the draft, maybe bring in 6, can't imagine there will be much quality beyond that, and one from PSD, so only need to delist 7 or 8. Rejects from other clubs will be first to go, as well as Chris Bryan. The writing was on the wall when we went for DMac. Maybe Flint can get elevated for Fish or Waite, he seems to be the best perfromed of the rookies.

The list of outs for me would be Kouta (retired), Chambers, Longmuir, McGrath, Bryan, Teague (contract not withstanding), then probably Prenda although Pagan has given him no opportunities in 05 or this year after a good 04, Davies, bit of a waste, but hasn't clicked. Possibly Livo, altho if he is given a reasonable go he might hang on.

If we delist any more than that we will just be picking up players to be delisted in another few years.

I think you guys need to think past just this year, I mean here's a hypothetical set of delistings (based on current form, and not my personal opinion) over the next two seasons:

Bryan
Chambers
Davies
Koutoufidies (retirement)
Livingston
Longmuir
Prendergast
Sporn
Teague (pay out)

Leaving us with as possibles next year:
Deluca
Saddington
Wiggins
McGrath
Lappin (retirement)
French (retirement)
Scotland
Hartlett
McLaren

9 in one year, 9 in the next.

But why you ask? Well chances are if the draft is so deep we're going to have some really good rookies coming through for us. Then we also need to take into account the big wraps on the 2007 draft.

I mean look who we have to delist just to reach that point, Scotland doesn't really deserve the chop, Hartlett, McGrath and Wiggins may do, but they don't really deserve it at the moment.

I dare not think what we have to do in 2008 (might get some nice picks though).

Considering that the 2006 and 2007 Drafts are supposed to be "strong and deep" (to use recruiting jargon), we can probably afford to make a few changes. There may never be riches like this available again, although it is not reasonable to suggest so. But I still have nightmares on missing the cream in 2001, when the drafts around that one were designed to sack recruiters.

Look guys, it doesn’t work like that - we need good players and lots of them, not ‘Mr. Fix-it’ construction kits.

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Just because I'm offended, doesn't mean I'm wrong.