I think there should be a new thread for each of these statements!

Big Nick backs Pagan as a way of showing unity but wants fans to blame Parkin, Brittain and Elliott for the mess we're in.

Legend backs Pagan, blast Parkin and Elliott.



Gold.

But will Jack even listen to a John Nicholls?

I have no doubt the board will sort out the mess we're in but they've had three years to do something about it.

BV how bad is Livo's back?

How bad is Justin's back?

Sporn seems to have lost pace (not that it was abundant) due to injuries and yes perhaps under Denis will not play too much football, can you say he would under any other coach? Can you state as fact it would have been different under anyone else?

Wiggo's last two games have been his best two for the club bar that game against the doggies under Britts.

Thought T-Bird's last month has been very good, and how hard for the kid not having support? Hartlett, Livo, etc. T-Bird seems to have regained composure with Lance down back - probably what the kid needed really, leadership.

So we are left with you other argument about mindset etc. And here I would argue you and I and everyone really, have no clue about that development until those plays have played over a 100 games and have the expereince, the maturity and the willingness to reflect.

It is easy to argue Denis is not doing this or that, but proof can only come over a long time.

He will not succeed with every player. Show me a coach that does. Ever!

So we must not take development as a schooling issue. it isn't. Sorry a coach at junior level (perhaps even VFL with the kids) must do the things you ask.

An AFL coach must seek to construct a list he thinks will win him a flag. No more and no less. If that flag is built upon the carcasses of a hundred 'could haves if onlys' so be it. Its a harsh system - an unfair system, it is not a school of sport.

It is a system I hate because it does spit out many that deserve more, but with constrictions upon lists, trading, drafting, etc. this will always be the case.

We cannot say Denis is or has failed unless you say that by now he should have won a flag.

You can argue he may not be the one to win a flag and still I would say that does not mean he has failed unless the person who comes in (new coach) must sack almost the entire list and start again (sound familiar?).

Pagan is assembling a strong list. Yet he is still 3 years away from that list being remotely close to finals. It could be argued he is therefore, on track according to many experts and many of us here who expected a very long haul.

Argue tactics BV but lets not pretend we know how many careers Denis has saved, ruined or not influenced at all. Truth is, not only do we not know, many of those players wouldn't know - though some might likely tell you otherwise.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

BlueWorld stated there has been "improvement from most of our younger player".

I disagree.

Your excuses, whilst a good read, just prove my point.

Answer the question Danny-

How much improvement has Wiggins made in 3+ years? or Sporn? Or Livo, or Houla, or Fisher, or Carrazzo, or Davies, or anyone..........anyone Danny.

Tell me who has improved markedly.

Simple question.

As for this..



I disagree completely.
A senior coaches role is to teach tactics, strategies etc without doubt.
Junior coaches including TAC give the basic framework only.
The vast majority of strategic development is supplied by the senior AFL system.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

and if that strategy does not involve player x - bad luck to player x - does not mean the coach has not developed, or is not developing, means he has made a call, as he should.

Betts
Tex
T-Bird
Simmo
Wiggo
McGrath
Stevo
Skinny
Houla
Fev
Blackers
AB
Setanta

are developing under Denis.

The rate of development is not a mathmatical fact I can lay my hands on.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Betts - just got dropped performed better last year than this
Tex- has improved this year - jury still out
T-Bird- natural improvement slipped back last year has recovered his 2004 form but not exceeded it -turns the ball over a lot
Simmo- jury still out shows dash - goes missing a lot
Wiggo- only just made it back into this side - and hasn't improved at all
McGrath- looked better at Essendon*
Stevo- disappointing in most games this year cant handle a tag has not improved at all since comming from Port
Skinny- no where near as good now than he was before Pagan took over
Houla- been better this year but has not set the world on fire
Fev- improved fist year of Pagan looks to have settled down this year still yet to fullfill his full potential
Blackers- 1.5 years to break into the worse side in the comp hardly setting the world on fire would he be playing with out the directive from the board
AB - Has bulked up which has meant he is better at the contest jury still out
Setanta- well its always going to be tuff for this bloke having to learn from scratch wether he would have developed better under someone else who knows


Danny that a pretty poor list

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Whilst I agree with the points you make Sydney, the fact remains that as a team we have been the worst one for the past 4 years.

Some of these players are better than they appear to be - Thornton is one and Stevens is another. If their teammates actually led to the ball rather than having feet stuck in concrete, then their kicks would likely not be turnovers.

The static nature of the team is downright appalling.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

I do not disagree with your right to have your subjective views SB, I simply do not agree with them and unless you can factually prove me wrong, I'll keep disagreeing - which really is my point. This is all a patato potato argument.

This does not mean Denis has no faults, he has many - shit I think he probably has as many as Parkin or Sheedy or Williams or Roos or Eade or Wallace or Clarkson or.....

But can not coach - well actually he can and does. How well? here the debate is about list/development/history/future/present/leadership etc

We all unravel this ball differently.

Some hate the loss of Rats or Manton.

I hated Jezza going. so what. I hated Sheldon going, Maylin, the list is endless, some champions so footballers, all decisions we made because we wanted another flag. - so what! Clubs and coaches always make tough calls - that's what we want. Its when they stop making these calls we run into trouble. (which is where Synners is coming from and I understand that and to me, is a very different argument to the Pagan can't coach end of story argument you put up all the time as the only answer to anything)

I think Denis continues to make these calls - I do not agree with them but I would rather he made them than didn't.

Am I happy where we are at? No more than you. I just do not think its because Denis cannot coach. is he the right coach? Time will tell. Yep, sorry, at least 3 years more time in my calendar.

Will he get those 3 years? Think its becoming increasingly unlikely.

has he got the senior players behind him?

Some say no he's lost them again.

I say if he has not then he probably never did and I wish he had have been able to get rid of the lot of them at the very start and hope whoever the new coach is (if it happens), that they set about ridding the team of those senior players and elevating the kids to those roles.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Part of what a coach/boss or any manager must be able to do is manage people.
Denis seems incapable of people management for one reason or another...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

The BIGGEST reason i have for falling off the Denis bandwagon was a 20 minute convcersation with him during the trade period last year...
He had clearly lost perspective of reality....
It dawned on me he was coaching for himself ...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Care to elaberrate

*Deep breath*

Betts - opposition players and coaches understand his game better this year, happens to a lot of players after a breakout year (albeit his first). Has a clear level of skill, flair and (best of all) work ethic.

Tex - Has improved but the jury's still out? Umm, why?

T-Bird - Back on track after a rocky 2005 season, still has to regularly play roles that don't quite suit him (Gherig).

Simmo - still doesn't have a big body, probably never will. With that in mind, shows a lot in games and should be a fairly consistent player by the end of this year. On the right track.

Wiggins - I feel (unlike you) he has worked hard to improve on his ability to size up an option (ie. decision making) and that was the biggest thing holding him back. If it's come back due to confidence, fantastic. Still worth a look at 23 years of age.

McGrath - very handy defender, not such a good tagger. Does his best work off HB but isn't there at the moment. Hard to improve coming to a club at 24.

Stevo - Not sure which games you've been watching.

Lappin - that is a load of crap, clearly should have been rested for his shoulder injury and opened the season in fine form. The man has barely missed a game in his entire career at Carlton, you are in fairy land.

Houla - so you conceed but he's still not good enough? Would hardly expect him to set the world on fire seeing as how he is suddenly our no. 2 midfielder. I'm stunned he's actually broken tags at all this year, first one to really hold him down.

Fev - this just proves you're looking to denegrate anything Pagan touches

Blackers - small body like Simmo, has PLAYED ONE GAME. Judd and no U/19 system has ruined the traditional footy-goers perception of development.

AB - In and under or bust unless his running goes up another notch this year, 20 years old, don't expect him to be setting the world on fire but he is one hell of an accumulator and feeder.

Setanta - absolute conjecture, you don't get away with that sort of stuff when you're being paid for your opinion.

SB, that's a pretty poor effort.

The story probably goes Synbad bombarded Denis with silly questions which were either obvious or he was unable to reveal the real answers, so he spouted absolute crap to get Synners off his back ASAP.

Bit of fun Synners, though you'll probably agree that's as good an excuse as he has lost the plot.

I think MOST of our younger players are better players than in 2002 or when they came to the club.

Sporn- no but has had injuries

Livo- no but has also had injuries and not been given opportunity

Davies, Prender - yet to play this year.

Fisher- has had injuries but showed improvement on return late 2005

Wiggins- some improvement this year

Fev, Houla- well ahead of where they were in 2002 where were lucky to be kept at the club. Much more consistent than they were and working harder.

Thornton- was barely a regular in 2002 and is now a key backman (but should be a flanker in a good side).

Simpson- Couldn't get a kick and has improved immensely

Walker- improved markedly this year and is much more consistent

Waite- better in 2005 than 2003-04 but has had injuries this year

All would be better players if they were surrounded by more good, experienced players who provide leadership.

Maybe Synbad pressed Pagan to agree that he would tank for 2006 so we could have the No. 1 draft pick in the bumper draft and a priority pick as well, but Pagan couldn't grasp the reality of this, and wanted to coach for himself by trying to win a few games so he could avoid a wooden spoon

jimmae I will just remind you


WE lost last week by a whopping 92 points and a fortnight earlier by 72 points we had over 100 points kicked against us in half a game of footy


WE ARE NOT F#@$KING IMPROVING

STOP PRETENDING EVERYTHING IS OK BECAUSE IT ISN"T

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

well that will teach Denis to have a chat with you

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Ok everyone has been told to come out and back Denis..

Can Denis this week back the team out there in the middle and allow them to play footy???

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

He said Synbad is a shithouse poster....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

two way street?

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!