I posted this in the Barry Mitchell for coach poll thread but it seems to me worth a thread of its own.

Did you ever stop to consider that much of Barry Mitchells relative success is because of the cattle he is given by Carlton recruiting efforts. Both talented younsters and guys that are terrific reserves players but not quite AFL standard. Think about it. One D. Pagan surely has a lot of sway in all this so perhaps he is not quite so useless as some people would like to think. Just for a minute imagine him coaching with say an Adelaide or West Coast list. Then figure this. Our list improves as the Bullants improve......but sadly not overnight. If we had the sort of list I just mentioned and we still were at the bottom then I would join the get Pagan bandwagon. In the meantime anti Paganites use your head and not your heart.

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carn the blues

I understand your point, but Pagan shouldnt coach to develop "fantastic reserves players."
The talented kids that were brought into the club were hardly Pagan's doing (despite ensuring we lost the amount of games we did to recruit some of the kids). The problem at the moment is the virtual lack of development of the younger Blues at the moment (and if they're playing so well in Mitchell's Bullants, why aren't they playing in the ones?), and the inherent rigidity to salvage something out of another season of misery.

Josh you didn't read what I said properly or think about it enough. The not quite AFL players help the Bullants but can't help the Blues. The kids are boys and with rare exceptions a la Murphy will not make a serious impact for several seasons. But together these players will probably win a Bullants flag and Mitchell may go on from there. But not yet.

Pagan can not be judged by the head as opposed to the heart as I have said till he has a list that is capable enough to win. The anti Pagan people by the way are not really anti Pagan but anti-losing and of course everyone here feels the same way its just that changing coach won't change a thing. It would be just a forlorn exercise and we would still be losing.

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carn the blues

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

The problem with this is that you are making inaccurate assumptions here.

Firstly, you assume that all people who want a change of coach do so because they are being emotional rather than analytical in their reasons for wanting such a change. This is demonstrably a false assumption, as quite a number of people here and elsewhere have presented rational reasons for wanting a new coach, without emotional sentiments (apart from the desire for eventual success) being one of these reasons.

Secondly, you categorise these same people as anti-Pagan. The fact that I want a change of coach and am not happy with the way Pagan has been coaching does not necessarily mean I am anti Pagan. I just think it's time he moved on, because in my opinion his approach is clearly not working, and in my opinion is hindering developmet of various players. My reasons are not simply because we have been losing.

Maybe you should take your own advise.

Live by the sword die by the sword.

I feel better now.

I take great heart in the fact that we've developed a fantastic side for the bullants.

Awesome.

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Congratulations CK95

All of you!

ODNB - Think I've missed something in your arguement - Given that our list is weaker and has less depth than most other victorian clubs atm would it not hold that our reserves players are weaker than the majority of the reserves players of other AFL sides?

So why then arent the bullants struggling? Surely you arent telling me that our 23-38th ranked players are stronger than that from the other AFL teams? - Even last season when the bullants list (as opposed to carlton listed players) was very weak we still managed to perform extremely well for most of the season.

The statement - our list improves as the bullants improve - Think I'm correct in saying that last season the bullants finished 2nd overall and made the preliminary final. This season I think we are close to being premiership favourites. How much more do the bullants need to improve before we actually see an improvement in the AFL side?

Also - how do you account for the fact that the 'reserves' teams of most other melbourne AFL teams perform poorly when compared to the bullants (I'm guessing 8 out of the other 9 melbourne teams fall into this category)

This sounds like the ultimate bluff from a coach who has absolutely no ideas left



Hell - bugger Pagan AND Micthell off - make Lance coach!!!

It,s good to have diverse viewpoints but don't misinterpret what I say. If I had time I would post a 10 page essay that delves into every nook and cranny of my argument. Simply put though I am saying Pagans recruiting has given us great kids and below afl standard types. Wait till those kids and the next batch come through and become hard bodied men and the othere are delisted.But it takes time. Put it this way. Mitchell or anyone else is hardly likely to get better results than Pagan is. Crikey..if he can't get em up how bad is the list?

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carn the blues

Well BH, a good heart these days is hard to find.....

Who's a better chance of winning: Carlton on sunday, or Lichtenstein on thursday?

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Love Cricket? Love me

let me get this straight a bloke that is getting paid between 600k-800k a year and is doing the crapiest job ever in the clubs history and we have to leave him alone because he providing a bloke with better players and making him look good .

I told you people who voted to keep Pagan in that poll were stupid

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

The most intelligent comment I have seen on the subject in a long time.

So if anyone reading my signature can preface it with Heady's point they know where I am coming from.

The reason we are not doing anything is because our board does not have the "financial guts" to do anything about it.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

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Love Cricket? Love me

Changing the coach may help bring some new found enthusiasm, bury the hatchet, give us new direction, send out the right message, calm the supporters, call it what you like, but suggesting that another coach will help us win more games is unrealistic.

Voting for or against Pagan is not stupid, it's a belief we hold to make our club a better one. One thing we can all agree on is the players' deficiencies we can improve on for the rest of 2006 and over the preseason; Pagan or no Pagan. Players need programs to improve, and we need to provide constructive input in this area regardless who the coach is.

We have a very young list, and a have a long way to go. The kids need to be faster, stronger and smarter, but hey they're kids, and if we realise where we are at, and where the kids are at, the focus wouldn't be so much on Pagan, but on developing the kids, and taking all the necassary steps to make them faster, stronger and more skillful.

We lack pace, we lack strength and we lack footy smarts. And the solution isn't to throw all the kids in the firsts to get smashed. We've got to do the right things by the kids; Pagan or no Pagan. The first step is an easy one, support them.

Congratulations to the small but vocal Carlton crowd that attended the game. Your voice was inspiring when expressing your pleasure in our team and your displeasure in the umpiring. You are the ones that will shape and mould our kids desire to represent this famous Old Dark Navy Blue jumper. Thanks.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Thanks Bondi. I attended and yes it was a small crowd but it did get vocal on occasions.

Pagans recruiting?

I'd suggest Pagans recruiting has given us Steven Kenna, Troy Longmuir, Heath Scotland, Jordan Bannister, David Clarke, Daniel Harford, Callum Chambers, Jason Saddington, Brett Johnson, Mick Martyn, Glen Bowyer and Ricky Mott.

The PSD has gifted us Nick Stevens and Dylan McLaren.

Wayne Hughes recruiting skills and inept football has given us Andrew Walker, Marc Murphy, Jordan Russell, Adam Hartlett, Paul Bower, Josh Kennedy, Jake Edwards, Anthony Raso etc.

The only thanks Pagan deserves is for not trading away the picks.

You can chocolate coat a turd ODNB but it's still a turd.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

BV,

I'm not endorsing any of those players but what choice did pagan have at the 2003 draft???
He had his tied

Matt Egan
Chris Knights
Sam Fisher
Andrew Raines
Shane Tuck
Michael Rischitelli

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch