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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 2:38 pm 
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Garry Crane

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Perhaps the club wants to get the "nightmare" games in Adelaide and Western Australia out of the way before giving more time to the young players... (although on our current form, even games against Richmond and the Hawks are taking on nightmare status)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:32 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I thought Livo did ok again.
His opponents were hardly damaging considering what happened.
Dont know why people keep bagging him. He did a job without starring. so what??
Are we expecting Mal Michael?
He hardly gets given a chance and gets dropped at a drop of a hat.

Wiggo was probably our best.
Sporn has been run into the ground by Denis.. hardly the kid that came onto the scene 4 years ago... has been turned into something he isnt. Id rather keep Sporn than Teague.
Id rather keep Livo than Saddington..

I dont know why people bag McGrath.. i always reckon he is pretty solid .

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:45 pm 
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Horrie Clover
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Livingston was not any good at all.

McGrath was shit.

Wiggins was OK.

Prenda wasnt too bad.

Sporn :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
Waste of time

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:46 pm 
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Robert Walls
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For three years I came onto this website (or The Blue View) and I read that Simmo wasn't good enough, that he wasn't up to it, that he was too light, that he wasn't skilled enough, etc. For two years I read that AB was too slow, that he couldn't find the footy, that his skills were no good. These posts were written every time that either of these lads played senior AFL footy.

What happened though when they went back to the VFL? Well over this period of time our seasoned observers at the Bullants would drool over the skill levels of these guys. In the VFL Simmo was quick, he could kick a mile, and he knew how to grab the footy. In the VFL AB was a machine - he could extract the ball in heavy traffic, and feed it out to runners such as Simmo. His kicking was great and his handball was visionary.

Newsflash people. For fifty years footy has been all about kids progressing, learning the craft, getting their confidence up and working their way into senior ranks through whatever feeder system exists. Then Judd came along. Well guess what? Judd is a freak - forget about him. We are lucky we've found a bloke called Murphy who has been able to have an impact in his first year, and the Tigers got one in Deledio, and the Dogs got one in Griffen too. But these players are rare.

The current selections in the AFL are much more about developing the young players in the VFL than they are about playing guys in the AFL who have previouslly been found wanting. Did any of you read the interview with Wiggo the other day where he said that he would have been better off spending a year in the VFL when he first came over? His confidence took a beating, and now we might finally be starting to see a player of some use coming through. Not all players have the confidence of a Murphy, or a Judd, or a Deledio. Big blokes in particular need time to develop. I remember reading the macth reports on here after Kennedy's first AFL game. Some observers made the rather blunt assessment that he sh&t himself during the game. What can we observe out of this? Maybe he is not quite the confident young chap that Murphy is - maybe he needs the opportunity to rip the game apart a few times in the VFL before he can establish himself. That doesn't make him a failure - I notice Buddy Franklin has been playing a fair bit of VFL this year and that is in his second season of footy.

The calls for theseyoung guys to be played looks to be selfish. Unless you really understand where the player is at (and that means psychologically as well as physically) then you have very little idea of whether in fact they are in a position to be running around in the seniors.

Let me remind you of one other player who we put in the seniors for development in his first full season. His name was Luke Livingstone, the year was 2002, and he played full-back in a Wooden Spoon side. His confidence was shattered, he's since had injuries, and I suspect he may be on his way out the door at the season's end. Our young players are far too precious to be continually subjected to the pressures of AFL football on the whim of a number of supporters who want to see the kids given a go.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:54 pm 
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Robert Walls

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Molly wrote:
For three years I came onto this website (or The Blue View) and I read that Simmo wasn't good enough, that he wasn't up to it, that he was too light, that he wasn't skilled enough, etc. For two years I read that AB was too slow, that he couldn't find the footy, that his skills were no good. These posts were written every time that either of these lads played senior AFL footy.

What happened though when they went back to the VFL? Well over this period of time our seasoned observers at the Bullants would drool over the skill levels of these guys. In the VFL Simmo was quick, he could kick a mile, and he knew how to grab the footy. In the VFL AB was a machine - he could extract the ball in heavy traffic, and feed it out to runners such as Simmo. His kicking was great and his handball was visionary.

Newsflash people. For fifty years footy has been all about kids progressing, learning the craft, getting their confidence up and working their way into senior ranks through whatever feeder system exists. Then Judd came along. Well guess what? Judd is a freak - forget about him. We are lucky we've found a bloke called Murphy who has been able to have an impact in his first year, and the Tigers got one in Deledio, and the Dogs got one in Griffen too. But these players are rare.

The current selections in the AFL are much more about developing the young players in the VFL than they are about playing guys in the AFL who have previouslly been found wanting. Did any of you read the interview with Wiggo the other day where he said that he would have been better off spending a year in the VFL when he first came over? His confidence took a beating, and now we might finally be starting to see a player of some use coming through. Not all players have the confidence of a Murphy, or a Judd, or a Deledio. Big blokes in particular need time to develop. I remember reading the macth reports on here after Kennedy's first AFL game. Some observers made the rather blunt assessment that he sh&t himself during the game. What can we observe out of this? Maybe he is not quite the confident young chap that Murphy is - maybe he needs the opportunity to rip the game apart a few times in the VFL before he can establish himself. That doesn't make him a failure - I notice Buddy Franklin has been playing a fair bit of VFL this year and that is in his second season of footy.

The calls for theseyoung guys to be played looks to be selfish. Unless you really understand where the player is at (and that means psychologically as well as physically) then you have very little idea of whether in fact they are in a position to be running around in the seniors.

Let me remind you of one other player who we put in the seniors for development in his first full season. His name was Luke Livingstone, the year was 2002, and he played full-back in a Wooden Spoon side. His confidence was shattered, he's since had injuries, and I suspect he may be on his way out the door at the season's end. Our young players are far too precious to be continually subjected to the pressures of AFL football on the whim of a number of supporters who want to see the kids given a go.


agree with most of your post however I actually thought livingston did more than adequately in his first year in the team - it was the subsequent years and recruitment of martyn that killed his confidence


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:58 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Disagree on McGrath Synbad, he looks slow and struggles on a mid sized forward who leads up the ground like Ebert

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:07 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Molly wrote:
For three years I came onto this website (or The Blue View) and I read that Simmo wasn't good enough, that he wasn't up to it, that he was too light, that he wasn't skilled enough, etc. For two years I read that AB was too slow, that he couldn't find the footy, that his skills were no good. These posts were written every time that either of these lads played senior AFL footy.

What happened though when they went back to the VFL? Well over this period of time our seasoned observers at the Bullants would drool over the skill levels of these guys. In the VFL Simmo was quick, he could kick a mile, and he knew how to grab the footy. In the VFL AB was a machine - he could extract the ball in heavy traffic, and feed it out to runners such as Simmo. His kicking was great and his handball was visionary.

Newsflash people. For fifty years footy has been all about kids progressing, learning the craft, getting their confidence up and working their way into senior ranks through whatever feeder system exists. Then Judd came along. Well guess what? Judd is a freak - forget about him. We are lucky we've found a bloke called Murphy who has been able to have an impact in his first year, and the Tigers got one in Deledio, and the Dogs got one in Griffen too. But these players are rare.

The current selections in the AFL are much more about developing the young players in the VFL than they are about playing guys in the AFL who have previouslly been found wanting. Did any of you read the interview with Wiggo the other day where he said that he would have been better off spending a year in the VFL when he first came over? His confidence took a beating, and now we might finally be starting to see a player of some use coming through. Not all players have the confidence of a Murphy, or a Judd, or a Deledio. Big blokes in particular need time to develop. I remember reading the macth reports on here after Kennedy's first AFL game. Some observers made the rather blunt assessment that he sh&t himself during the game. What can we observe out of this? Maybe he is not quite the confident young chap that Murphy is - maybe he needs the opportunity to rip the game apart a few times in the VFL before he can establish himself. That doesn't make him a failure - I notice Buddy Franklin has been playing a fair bit of VFL this year and that is in his second season of footy.

The calls for theseyoung guys to be played looks to be selfish. Unless you really understand where the player is at (and that means psychologically as well as physically) then you have very little idea of whether in fact they are in a position to be running around in the seniors.

Let me remind you of one other player who we put in the seniors for development in his first full season. His name was Luke Livingstone, the year was 2002, and he played full-back in a Wooden Spoon side. His confidence was shattered, he's since had injuries, and I suspect he may be on his way out the door at the season's end. Our young players are far too precious to be continually subjected to the pressures of AFL football on the whim of a number of supporters who want to see the kids given a go.


Extremely well put!


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:11 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Molly wrote:
For three years I came onto this website (or The Blue View) and I read that Simmo wasn't good enough, that he wasn't up to it, that he was too light, that he wasn't skilled enough, etc. For two years I read that AB was too slow, that he couldn't find the footy, that his skills were no good. These posts were written every time that either of these lads played senior AFL footy.

What happened though when they went back to the VFL? Well over this period of time our seasoned observers at the Bullants would drool over the skill levels of these guys. In the VFL Simmo was quick, he could kick a mile, and he knew how to grab the footy. In the VFL AB was a machine - he could extract the ball in heavy traffic, and feed it out to runners such as Simmo. His kicking was great and his handball was visionary.

Newsflash people. For fifty years footy has been all about kids progressing, learning the craft, getting their confidence up and working their way into senior ranks through whatever feeder system exists. Then Judd came along. Well guess what? Judd is a freak - forget about him. We are lucky we've found a bloke called Murphy who has been able to have an impact in his first year, and the Tigers got one in Deledio, and the Dogs got one in Griffen too. But these players are rare.

The current selections in the AFL are much more about developing the young players in the VFL than they are about playing guys in the AFL who have previouslly been found wanting. Did any of you read the interview with Wiggo the other day where he said that he would have been better off spending a year in the VFL when he first came over? His confidence took a beating, and now we might finally be starting to see a player of some use coming through. Not all players have the confidence of a Murphy, or a Judd, or a Deledio. Big blokes in particular need time to develop. I remember reading the macth reports on here after Kennedy's first AFL game. Some observers made the rather blunt assessment that he sh&t himself during the game. What can we observe out of this? Maybe he is not quite the confident young chap that Murphy is - maybe he needs the opportunity to rip the game apart a few times in the VFL before he can establish himself. That doesn't make him a failure - I notice Buddy Franklin has been playing a fair bit of VFL this year and that is in his second season of footy.

The calls for theseyoung guys to be played looks to be selfish. Unless you really understand where the player is at (and that means psychologically as well as physically) then you have very little idea of whether in fact they are in a position to be running around in the seniors.

Let me remind you of one other player who we put in the seniors for development in his first full season. His name was Luke Livingstone, the year was 2002, and he played full-back in a Wooden Spoon side. His confidence was shattered, he's since had injuries, and I suspect he may be on his way out the door at the season's end. Our young players are far too precious to be continually subjected to the pressures of AFL football on the whim of a number of supporters who want to see the kids given a go.


Good post that.

Seems like Pagan gets blamed for every player that hasn't made progress over the last couple of years whilst all the others - Fevola, Houlihan, Bentick, Simpson, Betts - are simply getting there by natural progression without any help from the coach.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:15 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Nah, i reckon McGrath was ok.. seriously.
I think McGraths problem is its a dogs breakfast down back with noone knowing what anyone else is doing.. and players are in 2 minds between attack and defence...

Livo wasnt terrible at all...

I think people aree expecting SoS and not a Wakelin/Hudgton/prestigiacomo.


The problem with EVERYONE on the ground is everyone is unsure of their role... and they lack confidence in the players around them..
Molly i agree with you...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:16 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Another quick thought:

If Livingston was so mentally scarred by his earlier experiences in the seniors (and according to some the only reason he hasn't developed into the player he should be :garthp: ) why are the same people demanding Kennedy et al play 1s every week.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:21 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Synbad wrote:
Nah, i reckon McGrath was ok.. seriously.
I think McGraths problem is its a dogs breakfast down back with noone knowing what anyone else is doing.. and players are in 2 minds between attack and defence...

Livo wasnt terrible at all...

I think people aree expecting SoS and not a Wakelin/Hudgton/prestigiacomo.


The problem with EVERYONE on the ground is everyone is unsure of their role... and they lack confidence in the players around them..
Molly i agree with you...


Totally agree Synbad that Livo was serviceable yesterday ... the matchup was right and he did ok. Unfortunately thats all he'll be for us - but its better than nothing I suppose!

At the moment we have lots of guys in the serviceable category who butcher the ball or stuff up 3-4 times a game. There's probably about 5 players every game who have dodgy disposal under pressure (skill, experience, confidence and composure are all factors) so if you multiply 5 by 4 thats about 20 clangers guaranteed before we even start. It's these turnovers that are costing us goals and games (and even my sanity!) at the moment.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:22 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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Molly wrote:
For three years I came onto this website (or The Blue View) and I read that Simmo wasn't good enough, that he wasn't up to it, that he was too light, that he wasn't skilled enough, etc. For two years I read that AB was too slow, that he couldn't find the footy, that his skills were no good. These posts were written every time that either of these lads played senior AFL footy.

What happened though when they went back to the VFL? Well over this period of time our seasoned observers at the Bullants would drool over the skill levels of these guys. In the VFL Simmo was quick, he could kick a mile, and he knew how to grab the footy. In the VFL AB was a machine - he could extract the ball in heavy traffic, and feed it out to runners such as Simmo. His kicking was great and his handball was visionary.

Newsflash people. For fifty years footy has been all about kids progressing, learning the craft, getting their confidence up and working their way into senior ranks through whatever feeder system exists. Then Judd came along. Well guess what? Judd is a freak - forget about him. We are lucky we've found a bloke called Murphy who has been able to have an impact in his first year, and the Tigers got one in Deledio, and the Dogs got one in Griffen too. But these players are rare.

The current selections in the AFL are much more about developing the young players in the VFL than they are about playing guys in the AFL who have previouslly been found wanting. Did any of you read the interview with Wiggo the other day where he said that he would have been better off spending a year in the VFL when he first came over? His confidence took a beating, and now we might finally be starting to see a player of some use coming through. Not all players have the confidence of a Murphy, or a Judd, or a Deledio. Big blokes in particular need time to develop. I remember reading the macth reports on here after Kennedy's first AFL game. Some observers made the rather blunt assessment that he sh&t himself during the game. What can we observe out of this? Maybe he is not quite the confident young chap that Murphy is - maybe he needs the opportunity to rip the game apart a few times in the VFL before he can establish himself. That doesn't make him a failure - I notice Buddy Franklin has been playing a fair bit of VFL this year and that is in his second season of footy.

The calls for theseyoung guys to be played looks to be selfish. Unless you really understand where the player is at (and that means psychologically as well as physically) then you have very little idea of whether in fact they are in a position to be running around in the seniors.

Let me remind you of one other player who we put in the seniors for development in his first full season. His name was Luke Livingstone, the year was 2002, and he played full-back in a Wooden Spoon side. His confidence was shattered, he's since had injuries, and I suspect he may be on his way out the door at the season's end. Our young players are far too precious to be continually subjected to the pressures of AFL football on the whim of a number of supporters who want to see the kids given a go.


Love this post Molly but what you forget is that in that 3 years that simpson and Bentick has been developing so have the other players in other sides and most have gone past them . Same can be said of Waite and Fisher .We sit here every day and we say look ar player x and player y aren't they coming on but the problem is so is everybody else and most at a faster rate than our blokes .

That the issue most people fail to understand and its the issue that guys like mojo BV and synbad are trying to get accross . Yes our guys are improving but no we are not improving anymore that our opposition so the status quo remians we still sit on the bottom getting flogged every week .

Thats the issue and the sooner the club wakes up to this the better off we will be . We need coaching that gives our guys the edge over the opposition and sat the moment we are not getting it

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:28 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Dukes wrote:
Another quick thought:

If Livingston was so mentally scarred by his earlier experiences in the seniors (and according to some the only reason he hasn't developed into the player he should be :garthp: ) why are the same people demanding Kennedy et al play 1s every week.


Dukes... Livo is being scarred by one thing... not given any trust...
Plays a good b;ock of games.... we play Bulldogs in NT.. dropped..

Its happened to him time and time again...

He is treading on eggshells.



i think people are getting confused... sure theyre improving (little steps) but so is everyone else.. and in many cases big steps.

Development takes time.. but you have to develop properly ...

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:32 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Dukes wrote:
Synbad wrote:
Nah, i reckon McGrath was ok.. seriously.
I think McGraths problem is its a dogs breakfast down back with noone knowing what anyone else is doing.. and players are in 2 minds between attack and defence...

Livo wasnt terrible at all...

I think people aree expecting SoS and not a Wakelin/Hudgton/prestigiacomo.


The problem with EVERYONE on the ground is everyone is unsure of their role... and they lack confidence in the players around them..
Molly i agree with you...


Totally agree Synbad that Livo was serviceable yesterday ... the matchup was right and he did ok. Unfortunately thats all he'll be for us - but its better than nothing I suppose!

At the moment we have lots of guys in the serviceable category who butcher the ball or stuff up 3-4 times a game. There's probably about 5 players every game who have dodgy disposal under pressure (skill, experience, confidence and composure are all factors) so if you multiply 5 by 4 thats about 20 clangers guaranteed before we even start. It's these turnovers that are costing us goals and games (and even my sanity!) at the moment.


dukes if we can get serviceable out of some players in spots like FB it goes along way to shoring up the structure up the ground...

Not everyone is going to be a star...

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 Post subject: Agree Molly generally
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:35 pm 
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Craig Bradley

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but sporn livo and wiggins have been in the system since 2000 - I have been a great advocate for many years for patience with youngsters and the class of 2000 to the point where it has been a standing joke - but they are no longer developing youngsters at 23 /24 years of age and been in the system 6 years and gone are the days with lists of 50 where Fraser Brown Doull tuck all played a plethora of reserves games and got the call up subsequently- if you dont make it by your 6th year now with the reduced size of the lists you are expendable.
I agree Livo in 2002 was excellent and was better than thorton at that time but for whatever reason his development has been stymied
Hopefully they will keep him but pressure will be on to bring the next batch of youngsters
AB and simpson will be given longer because they are younger and the club seems to have generally done the right thing by them
Agree we shouldnt put too much pressure on our young players but also they must be preferred generally to players that wont develop or take the team further
I would have thought with Kennedy his performance against Essendon* meant that he would have played for a number of weeks after that - similarly Blackwell did alright against Stkilda and could have deserved another few games


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:40 pm 
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Robert Walls
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I guess Sydney Blue that my post was about selection policy (nothing about the coaching panel)- and that's where I'll stick to giving my opinion.

What we've done is to develop AB and Simmo. There are probably others during this period who we have sent through the system - including Walker. The problem is that these guys have joined a side which did not have a critical mass of players in their prime - ie. 24-28 year olds. Pretty easy for a kid like O'Keefe (for example - as someone close to the age of AB and Simmo) to come into the Swans and look like he's better than our blokes, because he's playing with guys like Hall, Barry, Kirk, etc. Same with almost any other club you can mention.

Until we develop this critical mass of 24-28 year olds I really don't believe we will have any idea how good our young blokes are. My original post indicated that I firmly believe we are doing the right thing to let our kids play in the VFL until they get the confidence to really play a part in the AFL. Russell is already shaping as the next AB / Simmo - last year people on here were saying we had wasted our number nine pick, this year the observers claim he is gunning it in the VFL and that he looks all class. Apparently Raso is looking great in the Reserves, and Edwards continues to improve now he's made the seniors. We need to work towards developing this batch of 24-28 year olds - and the next two drafts will be key.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:42 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Livo - 45 games
Sporn - 46 games
Wiggins - 68 games
Bentick - 24 games
Simpson - 31 games
Walker - 43 games

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:49 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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What we have to worry about is to not allow the next batch of kids.. to go the same way as the Livos Sporns Wiggos ..

and thats your Davies Waites etc....

Its a fine line unless we do it properly..

Or we can keep blaing the recruiters....

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:52 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Quote:
What we have to worry about is to not allow the next batch of kids.. to go the same way as the Livos Sporns Wiggos ..

and thats your Davies Waites etc....

Its a fine line unless we do it properly..

Or we can keep blaing the recruiters....


Spot on Synbad. And I don't think we'll be able to blame the recruiters, because from what all of us can see, they seem to have done a pretty fair job. The worry is that we end up being like Fremantle - plenty of 24-28 year olds but nothing of any significance.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2006 5:09 pm 
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Harry Vallence

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Say all you want but the recruiting dept has to take a fair whack of the blame for our demise.

It's not only 2000 but what about 1996-1999 recruits. Where are they? What happened to their development? No Pagan in these years and remember these kids had a solid core of senior blokes to learn off - SOS, Sexton, Dean, Brown, Ratts, McKay, etc.

Fev and Massie are solid AFL players. Houla maybe but what about the rest?

If only 20% had gone on with it or if we had recruited ok we would now have our 4-5 senior 25-27 year old established tier.

I know there are aren't any guarantees in recruiting but with an ounce of luck surely you've got to get 1-2 correct.


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