Wigg looks like he has turned the corner. Runs hard, shows some mongrel, marks well ,kicks long and good. Better option than Fisher really.
He deserves a game.

Which coaches had Gary Ablett? How lucky were they to have him? How many premierships did they get with Ablett on board? SPELL THEM OUT PLEASE.
I want Denis out but it won't happen quickly. To use his record at the Kangaroos to make a point is utter nonsense.

I think Molly's post covers that one WBY.

Your example Walker was a gun and has been in the system for a few years now. He got his call up, showed something special, followed by a decline, and stint in the ressies to get some touch and apply what he has learnt in the big league. He didn't happen over night.

I guess in theory if he was left to flounder, his reputation would be tarnished (see Molly's post re Russell), he would have lost all self confidence, lose the sight of light, dig a hole that he may never come out of, and may also feel displaced, such as Livo has become.

Scarred mentally is far more serious than broken bones, as they heal over time naturally. Mental scarriing can live with a footballer for the reso of his life.

Kids have to be ready to play and given small roles that are achievable in the seniors, and then its steady as he goes, back to the ressies and apply them in a bigger way, then step back up...it's a process...unless they are a man child ala Murphy, Judd, Ball.......

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Hi Wild Blue Yonder,

good questions. And you are right - it is not going to scar every kid. I guess what I am trying to say is that there are some kids who aren't psychologically equipped to handle it. Given that most of us on here are outsiders, I don't think we personally are in the position to judge who is equipped and who isn't? Take Kennedy - is he ready for it psychologically? Don't know. But that is where those close to the players need to make some hard and fast decisions.
Just a quick point re Walker - he did play a few VTL games last year (not sure how many), but obviously there was a belief at one stage that he needed to go back to do something else. I think that if we look at the young players we have developed over the last few years (since 2002), we can see it as follows:

Fisher - very little VFL footy
Walker - some VFL footy, but not much
Betts - very little VFL footy
Simpson - heaps of VFL footy
AB - heaps of VFL footy
Russell - heaps of VFL footy
Murphy - no VFL footy
Blackers - heaps of VFL footy
Raso - heaps of VFL and school footy

Haven't included Hartlett cause he's hardly played, and the lads other than Murphy drafted in 2005 are obviously playing more VFL than AFL.

see why it is based on the individual? Clearly some of these kids were more ready than others. And in the end, all I'm saying is that if we don't know if the kid is ready, then we are probably not in a position to judge whether or not they should be playing senior AFL.

It's a difficult question this scarring.

I'm starting to think mismanaged opportunity could cause more impact than floggings.

It's probably also a reality of AFL footy now - well at least the system created - that teams considered reasonable are going to cop floggings sooner than expected - ie Essendon*'s fall. Now I think in this case Sheedy has made a point (or dug a hole) suggesting he will play kids to fix the problem. Similarly Hawthorn.

Does the 30 minutes game time for Kennedy do him more harm than playing on a decent HBF for 80 minutes and learning a few tricks from Whitnall alongside him in a side that goes down by 10?

I don't know the answer, but I suppose an important part of the equation is that few players are ready made without experience (Murphy, JUdd Ball etc being those of a handful of exceptions) and the game time to get the experience they need doesn't come in the VFL due to the diffirence in calibre / quality.

I agree, Bondi, that they need small roles in the seniors and we can't load the weight of the globe on them, but isn't this a system that develops players better than the VFL?

If players generally need 50 - 75 games to really prove their worth as many commentators commonly hold, are we just delaying / slowing / fudging our future by not playing them now?

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

Carey abilities on the field were one thing, the control he had over many issues off the field were what made Nth and Pagan.
Like i have said before he controlled the player group, was a bully to the younger and fringe players and Pagan let him do what he liked as long players performed....if you were on the wrong side of Wayne Carey and his henchman you were in for a hard time...but it also created a level of discipline amongst the player group and kept individuals in line..Carey also demanded excellence on the playing field and wouldnt tolerate piss poor players stuffing up or shirking. He had a major say in selection and players new that and that made them play for him....not Denis...
Being the face of a poor club also gave him plenty of power and even the powerbrokers at Nth were scared to bring him into line.....I dont think there would be too many players who have controlled a club like Wayne Carey did....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

How did the Kangaroos make the finals after Wayne Carey got caught screwing his best mates wife and left the club in turmoil? Carey did not play for the whole year yet they made the finals. What a load of bullshit.

Walls fluctuates too much. Now he wants his pick for the Norwich Rising Star (it was back in 98/99!) in Prenda not given a run in the seniors.

You are entiitled to your opinion of course but my information is direct from a ex player and verified by another unlike you who have not provided a source for your " Bullshit" theory....
They made the finals because Archer and Stevens rallied the troops and half the list were glad to see the back of Wayne Carey.......Brent Harvey being an exception...
And by the way the Stevens affair was the public one.....he had a fair crack at a few others that didnt make the media....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Just ask the ex player to answer the above questions if you can't yourself. And then ask the ex player how the Kangaroos made the finals when Carey did not play after getting caught screwing his best mates wife if you can't yourself. Let me know, I am hanging on every word you post.

re: Gary Ablett.....dont think Gary Ablett had the leadership or authority at either Hawthorn or Geelong that Wayne Carey had at North Melbourne,.
This isnt about playing ability its about the relationship that Carey had with Pagan and how Nth operated and how Pagan has struggled without a Wayne Carey type figure at Carlton...
I'm not using his record at Nth as a reason to give him the flick just pointing out how he operated and how important Carey was in the whole scheme of things.....
You dont have hang of every word I write or accept what I say..thats up to you but leave the sarcasm for big footy.com or the like...I'm only relating to the forum what I have been told....you can let go now...I'm finished....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

And the performances of Archer, Laidley, Martyn, Stevens, Schwass, Fairley, Blakey, McKernan, etc. had nothing to do with their success?

It's ridiculous to say one player in a team of 21 or 22 players was the reason Pagan was successful and his teammates were nothing without him.

I guess Phil Jackson is an average coach because he had Jordan, Pippen, Bryant and O'Neal in his championship teams?

How many rings did Jordan win before they signed one S.Pippen at the Bulls?

One alltime great isn't enough to win you a Flag and Ablett and Lockett never tasted victory in September. It was Archer and Carey that typified North Melbourne and Wayne wasn't named as the Shinboner of the Century.

I rate Jezza a greater player than Carey. Does that mean that Barassi was nothing without Jezza? Stupid arguments!!

Great teams win flags.

Look at Port Adelaides premiership and look at them now.

They have lost their good midfielders (Carr, James, Francou, Hardwick, etc) and they arent anywhere nears as good.

You still have the "Superstars": Tredrea, Cornes and co.

You need 22 contributors to be good.

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Revenge is a dish best served cold

&

I AM PROUD SPONSOR OF THE CAROLINE WILSON HATE CLUB

what you ar epointing our Elwood is that great teams have great leadership and coaches are only one part of that jigsaw.

I agree.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Its not about playing ability like I said before its about Carey being the master of the playing group and the power he wielded....and how Pagan allowed Carey to dominate proceedings....Wayne even dictated where the playing group would go on their end of season trips....Sholl, Stevens, Schwass(when he wasnt off his face), Archer, Blakey were all part of his team of cronies who ran the player group...Denis didnt want to know about player problems....Wayne and crew would sort it...or cover it up.....
and off course Denis would do the same for Wayne and friends....cost the club a few dollars as well..

Sure they had great players and no one could argue that one man makes a team on the field but off the field..it was a one man team... with some loyal followers..

re: Glen Archer....good footballer but you can take tha halo of his head because it doesnt belong there...I wont be expanding on that either....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Elwood you are doing more backflips than a Russian gymnast. I don't doubt what you are told by an ex North player. He said Pagan was nothing without Carey and all I have done is pointed out a fact that for the one season Pagan did not have Carey they made the finals. So what you tell us is for that year Pagan was nothing without Stevens and Archer because it suits you.
With the logic you have displayed in these posts you are Big Footy POW.

Backflips?... think I have been consistent in my debate.....we will agree to disagree then...
Big Footy POW.. that hurts....thats really very cutting and clever of you..I'm clearly out of my depth and will retire gracefully from the battlefield....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

I can understand what Elwood is saying as it makes sense.
I have no doubt that Careys crew were handy footballers also.

But.........would his crew have been the same, or even stuck around without him there??

I think that is the influence that his football ability had, and is what Elwood means.

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Circumstance has no value. It is how one relates to a situation that has value. All true meaning resides in the personal relationship to a phenomenon, what it means to you.

Actually everything Elwood says fits in with observation and the various snippets of information leaked from time to time around the traps. I don't know why some find it so hard to accept. It is quite consistent with the available information.