we competed with Essednon Collingwood Hawthorn Nth (with 10 year) Melbourne who had everything until they went off the rails - Diamond Jim anyone? geelong - who had the stars just not the culture - and others.

See yes we were able to get players to the club
and we had something else

Culture

and Leaders

People talk about Carey Pffft!!! try Big Nick.

Expectation

and devlopment of youth

so yes we got top players - but like so many arguments on this board
to say 'we won our flags because of money is simplistic. That was a factor. Was it the main factor? Who the @#$%&! knows. Jezza yep, but then we lost Tiger to Nth. Braddles yep but then we didn't land Platten. Its part of why we were successful.

Perhaps the point is we were leaders in the VFL

now we trail behind pointing at our little red wagon asking someone, anyone, to come fix it.

Oh how the mighty have fallen.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

That's even more reason to trade Fevola and Whitnall - because it will give us a greater return. If we get a few young 18 year olds in return and they start producing the goods on the field you sheep will all be raving about how good they are and be loving them like you love Murphy.

People are raving on like Whitnall is the equivelant of SOS. Whitnall's 2001 was average and his 2002-2004 was absolutely deplorable despite the sheep oooh'ing and ahhhh'ing about his 'football brain'.

Fevola has been on the list for about 8 years and did nothing until 2003, with plenty of bad periods in between.

We don't owe either of them anything.

Can anyone name ONE hard decision this club has made over the last 10 years??

New players in 1986: Kernahan, Bradley, Motley, Dorotich. Virtually picks 1,2,3 and 4 in any future draft. How the hell did most clubs compete against that?

Anyone could have signed these players. The fact we did showed why we where the best. Money was one puzzle in the whole picture back then. People in the know will testify what it took to get someone's signature back then, and believe me, selling the club was well up their.

You dont get it... you cant sell your club to get players of such ilk today...
You can only get them in via the draft... period.

If youre on top and you have a very glamorous club... say West Coast... you cant get Gibbs... Or Sellar... or Gumbleton... unless you give up Judd.

So if you want kids that are elite you just have to take your number and wait at the bottom... then you have a few years to win a premiership.. when that window closes you have to do it all over again..

AFL today!!!


A few years ago you could only get the really good players if you wooed them.. paid them and promised them premierships...

Fitzroy couldnt get Sticks Braddles Dora and Motts... in one year..

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

It would've been nice to nab either Power or Bartel last year ....shame we couldn't land them ....wonder why??

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There's so much I could say...

Lets concebtrate on developing our own players first and when we can sell a plan and arent that tight arsed with $ we might be able to land someone.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Wasn't there someone else we could have got who would not have cost much and is performing very well this year?

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"You are being watched. The government has a secret system. A machine that spies on you every hour of every day. I know because I built it." - Finch

Destroyed us last week.

When the more intelligent ones on this site were saying now how completely pointless it was in 2004 finishing 10th, the majority of the sheep were raving about David Teague and Heath Scotland and preparing for a top 8 finish in 2005 and a top 4 finish in 2006. Two years on you think these sheep would have learnt their lesson, obviously they haven't.

In 4 years time one of the 'know it alls' that loves repeating whatever nonsense Pagan says, eg. Whitnall has a fantastic footy brain or we need a mix of experience and youth in the side etc, will come to the conclusion that winning 6 and 7 games in 2006 and 2007 was in fact the worst thing that could have happened as we were stuck in no mans land in regard to draft picks. Then all the sheep will jump on the wagon and say the same thing. You can see it happening now, it is as predictable as the sun coming up in the morning.

I hate to give you poor deluded fools a reality check but this club has ZERO chance of winning a flag in the next 8 years - yes that is how long it takes, unless we bottom out properly in the next two drafts and can add a minimum of another 2 or 3 A grade players - Voss, Goodwin, Hird, Judd etc. Players like Kade Simpson and Brett Thornton will never be A grade players no matter how great you think they are or how much you talk them up, they are nothing more than support players for the match winners.

Unfortunately our current board is as pathetic as most of our supporters and fail to understand the current footballing environment and will want a few cheap thills in the next couple of years that will just lead to long term mediocrity - something this club is the best in the league at.

All of you sheep wanting cheap wins are putting your own selfish interests ahead of what is best for the club.

Carlton God
Footy Expert
Leader of Men

CG I really don't want to get into a slanging match. I understand that hard decisions have to be made, and that we're in an awful situation, and I don't have the recipe that will guarantee us a flag in the next 10 years.
I try and stay positive about our future, and I'm certainly no sheep. In fact I'm as rebellious as they come because all I want to do is to have lots of fun.

The reason I remain positive is because I'd rather take a pragmatic approach to the Blue Boys than have a susceptible expectation that leads to despair. Despite the fact that I know the Navy Blue Empire will Strike Back my outlook is simple; I really am looking for enjoyment.

I'm glad you mention that we will not win a flag in 10 years time, but I wouldn't bet on that. I have seen a great team fall to the bottom in one year. Whilst one falls, folowed by another, others will rise, and the cycle of modern day football begins. Many will be in contention to win a flag, but will fail. Others will be thereabouts and competitive and win one.

What I do know is that we're in big trouble (I think we all know that, and live in hope as it doesn't hurt as much) and that The Carlton Brand can return to its former glory.

I also know that in today's football, you don't have to win premierships to be a powerhouse. I know that if we get a young team growing together for say 8 years, they will know each other better that if they didn't, and that group will peak at some stage. When that group peaks, they will be competitive again, and they will be more enjoyable to watch. As a result the memberships will improve, and the team will be more attractive to sponsors, and it will be much more enjoyable to watch than it has over the last 5, and next 2.

What I don't get is what your premise is. You talk about avoiding mediocrity, and ZERO chance of winning a flag in the next 8 years, and we have to bottom out in the next two drafts to avoid mediocrity and that's fair enough. But what is the result? A flag, a competitive team?

Regardless of the attitude of hope within the supporter group, our destiny is the bottom of the ladder for the next couple of years, and regardless of whatever anyone thinks, that's the sign of the times anyway, and from this we will get a few early drafts. I think we all know that.

Are you sure you talking about trading players to gain 2-3 A graders to help us win a flag within an 8 year period? Is that a personal guarantee. There are no definites in the football world. On this subject of carlton winning a flag, nobody is right and nobody is wrong, and I don't believe in god either. So lets see where the kids take us, because the board aint.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

That is a very serious allegation against the Board.

Do you have a reference for an AFL guarantee beyond player payments? Do you realise PwC have just reviewed the club for the purposes of satisfying the Board we are solvent?



Thats my point. Do you think people will sign memberships or that corporations will agree to sponsorships because we offload Lance so that we can pick up some 18yo? Do you reckon CUB are sitting out there thinking 'Jeez - we should get behind whoever picks up Bryce Gibbs - they are on the way to being a good team in 3-4 years time.' Its the same with members. I doubt many of the 6K of members that dropped off would know Gibb's name - so why would they sign up again? If we traded for Judd that would be different but is precisely because it would also compromise the serial tankers strategy - the bulk of supporters are fairweather and want the prospect of a win, or at the least a competition each week. Sponsors only want to be aligned with winners. Who wants to have their logo on the breast pocket of the bedraggled wooden spooners wandering off after ten goal defeats each week? And yet this is what the serial tankers want so that we can get another couple of years of priority picks?!! Such a strategy requires a war-chest we simply don't have. The REAL WORLD is that we a much close to the circumstances of North Melbourne than the Weagles and the bank knows it, jeez - even you seem to acknowledge it with your reference to insolvency and AFL guarantees.



It is not magical. It contractual term that is a function of the tenancy fee / historical average admission price. The club bleeds when it draws only 18k to a game. I shudder to think what is in store for our game against Freo if we do not start to perform.



I watch both and am pleased Lance is featuring well in various awards and that Murphy is recognised as a genuine talent. But that's not the point. I was one of just 18K who turned up on Sunday and both guys were playing.

Do you go to Carlton Games Mr Carlton God? if so do you cheer on the players and want the team to win? if not do us a favour get yourself a Richmond membership and follow them.

We are in desperate times and the last thing we need are supporters like you not only turning on the players and the club but also it's supporters. Where do you get off by referring to supporters as "sheep" if you are so clever and have all the answers call the club tomorrow and offer your services!

I'm 38yrs old and as a football supporter I have been spoilt throughout the 70, 80 and 90's. I refuse to turn on my club when they need us the most. Yes, I don't agree with everything the club is doing but I will not turn on them. It's supporters like you that will bag Murphy when he starts to struggle because he's 32 yrs old and his knees start playing up, you forget all the good times and will want to dump him as quick as possible.

Whilst you are lining up buying your Richmond membership have a look at the West Coast and Adelaide list and you will find they are not teams completely made up of first or second round draft picks. Selling your soul does not guarantee the ultimate success, just ask Mr Thomas.

That is a very serious allegation against the Board.

Do you have a reference for an AFL guarantee beyond player payments? Do you realise PwC have just reviewed the club for the purposes of satisfying the Board we are solvent?

PJ the 4 million dollars the club gets in advance is gauranteed by the AFL. Let PWC review the club on the basis that the AFL don't act as guarantor for the loan and that we have to wait for the money at the end of the season along with the clubs who don't need the money. PWC will hand in a one page report and it will go like this.

PAGE 1

CARLTON FOOTBALL CLUB = INSOLVENT

Sorry mate id hate to break it to you but we are as solvent as you can get without being legally insolvent.

Is that serious???

Now i dont know what you think winning 6 games will do that winning 4 wont...

Excpet @#$%&! us up for another few years to have any chance of winning the premiership.

if the club is not 'insolvent' we wouldnt be going to the AFL for assistance .. and they would not be giving us anything.

so why dont you stick that up your pipe and smoke it??

The word used to descrive the current state is "precarious"

So if youre not going to really bottom out right now.. and stop with the lunacy of no long term plans.. and living day to day...Were down the gurgler...
and yes it is serious...!!!

and thats what happens when there is a lack of a clear plan...

Its not too late to plan for the next few years considering we just FU<KED up the last few years....

Is it???

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Jbee - you are right about the advance, but that is different to the AFL providing a guarantee.

Synbad - you are just embarrassing yourself if you suggest clubs only seek AFL assistance when they are insolvent. Almost every director of the assisted clubs has substantial business interests and directorships outside the clubs. They are not in those positions because they take directors duties lightly. I assure you the PwC report was considerably more involved than a 1 pager.

That said, it is clear we are close to the line, and I note you are yet to discuss how the serial tankers propose the club can survive lost membership and sponsorship revenue in the multiple seasons required for your plan to take place.

My suggestion is that you use the "edit function" so you can delete most of the crap you just typed.

Getting rid of you best players, that really sends a message. "play well and we'll trade you because you have currency"......and all for untried kids. That type of "reward" would do alot for morale around the place.

canus . youre embarassing yourself to even be arguing this point with me...
because you know what?
you dont even know what youre talking about...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

At present the players we have with over 100 games experience are Fevola French Houlihan Koutifides Lappin Saddington Scotland Stevens and Whitnall. Most of those in the 50-100 game group may not be with us next season and as trade bait would not attract a lot of attention.

I can see Synbad's point that we need to try and trade someone for another early first round pick as we need to get the best young kids we can get. However I don't think we have a lot of trade bait that would interest other clubs and Lance and Stevens fill positions where we currently don't have a lot of other options.

Perhaps it is better to look at an area where we have quite a few players battling for 1 or 2 positions. We do have French Bryan McLaren DeLuca Batson and O'Hailpin all fighting for potential ruck positions. However given this is supposedly a very good draft maybe no club will give up their first round pick and I don't know if I would trade Stevesn or Whitnall for a second round pick?